378: I Investigated Enron But Missed the Biggest Secret of All with Beth Jones

Beth Jones 00:00:00:

I'm all about healing. That's why the show's called let's Heal with Beth Jones. And that's what I share my stories. I have other survivors on there who tell their stories. I don't focus on the trauma. We focus on the healing. Although I do give every guest an opportunity to say whatever they want to say about how they arrived at a place where they needed to heal. Right. So there is, you know, so we do get into a little bit as they're comfortable sharing, but the purpose is not to talk about the painful stuff. The purpose is to talk about the happy stuff, getting to the good place. Right. And then I also bring on the practitioners who administer the modalities that help us to heal. Right. So it's a, you know, just all things dedicated to healing, so.

Harry Duran 00:00:39:

Beth Jones, host of Empowered Survivors, thank you so much for joining me on Podcast Junkies.

Beth Jones 00:00:44:

I'm very happy to be here with you today. How are you?

Harry Duran 00:00:48:

I'm great. I'm fantastic.

Beth Jones 00:00:49:

Fantastic. Me too.

Harry Duran 00:00:51:

Yeah, someone told me that a while ago, years ago, and they said there's no way you can say I'm fantastic and not have a smile on your face.

Beth Jones 00:00:58:

That's right, because the word just just have to have a smile when you say it. Fantastic. It's fun to say it.

Harry Duran 00:01:03:

I was on the phone with an operator, some customer service desk, and she's like, how are you doing today? And I was like, fantastic. She's like, whoa, fantastic. Thank you. I was like, that's. Haven't heard that one yet. And I was like, explain why. So by the end of the conversation, she's like, you have a fantastic day.

Beth Jones 00:01:19:

That is fantastic.

Harry Duran 00:01:22:

So we have our mutual friend April to thank for this connection. She seems to be, like, just a wizard at communicating cool people.

Beth Jones 00:01:29:

Yeah, she is definitely to thank for this. And I love being in her orbit because there are amazing people that she's connected to, yourself included. So it's really. It's been a fun part of the journey working with her, for sure.

Harry Duran 00:01:42:

How did you guys meet?

Beth Jones 00:01:43:

We met in college. We're fraternity sisters. We've known each other for a really long time, which is a really cool story that we have together and kind of a micro story within my own broader story of visibility and making it to my show where I have my own podcast. And so she is pivotal in that for me because probably, I don't know, four years ago now when I was realizing that I had a story to tell and developing platform to be able to help people, but I had no idea what my story was or how to get my arms around my story. And so I spent a day with her and sort of the rest is history, as they say. So, you know, I published a chapter in one of her collective books in that series that she has, and then went on to write my own book. And, yeah, now the show. And she is someone that helps me with visibility. She's coach for me. Yeah, it's been a great journey together.

Harry Duran 00:02:38:

So I normally, like, ask folks where they're at, you know, in terms of like, where's home for you now? And then you've probably. You've got a more interesting story about what home was like early on in your life. You've been a bit of a traveler. So, yeah, start with where you're at now, and then let's start and then wind the clock back to those early days.

Beth Jones 00:02:56:

So I'm in Duncanville, Texas, which is about 10 miles south of Dallas. Okay. And I am currently sitting in a place that I feel like is my home. And for me, that is joyous because it's the first time in my life that I've ever felt what I believe is the concept of home. When people talk about being at home and there's a combination of people in place, I've learned that goes into that, and I have that feeling. I know I'm at home. In fact, I tell people now that I'm going to go from here to grave is my plan. And that is moving around so much in my life. But then also there was a period of time where I really had wanderlust and kind of felt like I was going to be a wanderer and a nomad and just there's some trauma associated with that in the past around just difficult home environments. My entire life as a child, as and as an adult. And I was like, I'm just done being homeowner. I don't want anymore. And, you know, never say never. And I said that about homeownership. Never again. Never say never. I learned that lesson like the 25th time in my life. And now here I am, home is in Dykenville, Texas. So. But I was actually calculating this today. Someone asked me this question earlier, and I am flirting with half of my life living it connected to the Dallas area. So working in Dallas, I lived for years. I lived east of Dallas and commuted in to the city when I was working here for a number of years. I'm getting close to half of my life now. The other half, I was raised in the Middle east and Southeast Asia and then lived in Hong Kong. Well, I mean, lived in Denver for a couple of years before moving to Hong Kong for about six years. All that started in 2014 and then I ended up back here in the Dallas area at the end of 2021. So adding it all up, I'm like right there on the half and half point of my life now.

Harry Duran 00:04:54:

What was it that had you in the Middle East? Does that just your parents were there and that's where you raised?

Beth Jones 00:04:59:

Yeah, my dad worked for drilling company, so he was on the service side of oil, actually pulling it out of the ground. So that took us everywhere that I lived as a kid and where they were after I graduated from high school was all because of that. My mom was a teacher in most of those places.

Harry Duran 00:05:14:

Yeah, so what was that like? Because obviously you hear a lot about those experiences, moving from place to place and not being able to settle and get some roots in. And I'm sure that's disruptive to like developing deep ties and friendships as a kid. So what was that experience like for you?

Beth Jones 00:05:31:

You know, I've experienced all of that, so I do have wanderlust in my blood and maybe I'm a bit transitory by nature, but I'm also highly adaptable. And so moving like that, you know, just. It's just what we're doing, right? It's just what I knew. And even as an adult, I moved a number of times as an adult and before I moved into where I am now in this house, in the last 10 years, I've moved that many times. And some of those were major moves. So kind of used to that, you know, it did make it difficult to build long term, deep relationships in those places. But I have many people who've been in my life for a very, very long time. Even going back to being a kid when I was growing up. There's something very unique about being what they called a third culture kid, which is, you know, you sort of expat living. You've got one national living in country and your parents may be from two or three different places. You've been to a bunch of countries that you live job. There's something very unique about those of us who have had that lifestyle. And there is a connection there. So even though we're spread out around the world, you still have that connection. And in fact, Facebook social media was one of the best things for people like me because I have friends literally who live all over the world and you lose contact with each other before social media. And that has Brought us all back together, you know, and now, you know, just watching the 25 to 30, 35 year anniversaries of, you know, the high school reunions passing by and you still get to keep up with everybody, which is really cool. So. Yeah, I mean, it, you know, it did have its challenges. Although I think we figured out ways to work around those deep rooted relationships that you would make. The bigger challenge for me really was with family and the extended family because we would only spend a very short amount of time back in the US every year when I was growing up, mostly in the summertime and you know, so all of the things like, you know, Christmas and Thanksgiving and holidays like that, celebrating birthdays with family, I didn't grow up with any of that. So that was my bigger challenge that I faced. And that whole idea of what does home mean?

Harry Duran 00:07:41:

Yeah.

Beth Jones 00:07:42:

And because I never grew up with any of that. Yeah, yeah.

Harry Duran 00:07:46:

And so having had that experience, the flip side of that is also the exposure to all these different cultures. And it's something that a lot of folks that are raised here in the States, some people don't even have a passport. It's like they've never even left the country. But I do remember that first time I went into, you know, not counting Mexico just, but just crossing the ocean and then, you know, going to like places like Amsterdam and Thailand and like when you're there for the first time, a big culture shock. But it's almost like what the environment you grew up in, has it given you like an appreciation for the richness and the diversity of cultures?

Beth Jones 00:08:21:

Yes, and very foundational in making me the person who I am today. So I am very open minded and love all people. And I know there is much more about us that is the same than there is that's different. And the things that people focus on when they focus on our differences, they're really focusing on things that are superficial and surface level and don't really mean anything. And you learn that when you go around the world and see the different cultures and the way that people live. And yes, there are differences, but there are more similarities to us than there are those differences. Right. And so I am super grateful for that. And it's part of my openness to any and everything. And when I say that, it's sort of like a no fear thing. Although I'm not an adrenaline junkie. There are some things there that I think are, you're not going to see me bungee jumping anytime soon, but you know, trying out new things, you know, when I'm saying this to you. One of the things that's in my mind right now is, you know, I'm known as the healing mentor and I do a lot around healing. And so I like to try different healing modalities so that I can share those with people so they can decide whether or not they want to hear my experience and then maybe try it for themselves. Right. And so I'm wide open to anything that people would say to me, hey, have you done this? You know, and if it interests me, I'm going to go research it a little bit and if I think it's something I want to try, I'm going to go do it. Right. So that's made me very, you know, open to not resisting even the ones that are alternative. Right. I do a lot of my own healing at. On the spiritual plane. So karmically or at the soul level, however you want to think of it. And I use alternative modalities to help me do that. And I think my openness to being able to do that kind of. My openness that my reception to it is all grounded in that diversity of experience that I had as a kid. Growing up, you couldn't pay me enough money to change that part of my life because it's so foundational in who I am today. I actually think that every person who lives in a first world or super modernized country, the U.S. this country, should have to spend a period of time outside of this country, but not in a major tourist city. You've got to get out. You get out into the countryside of those countries or get into a developing nation and experience life that way. Really, it does change your perspective a great deal.

Harry Duran 00:10:50:

Yeah, I couldn't agree more. And my partner's fond of doing the things that are off the beaten path when she's traveling. And just like, where do the locals go? Let's not go to the restaurants that are in the books and the guides, like, talk to the people who know because the. And they'll take you down some dusty road, something to places that no one goes and like, the food or the experience is amazing.

Beth Jones 00:11:09:

Yes, yes. But you see, it's packed with the locals. You're like, I'm definitely in the right place for what I'm after. Yeah. You know, I. So, you know, just growing up that way and then for many years in my professional career, I traveled internationally. So I used to fraud and white collar crime investigations and more specifically investigating foreign corruption, bribery. And that would take me to, you know, you have a lot of that Stuff happening in the developing nations where people are after infrastructure or resource contracts in those countries. And that really took me to another level of becoming very localized in culture and really getting to see countries in different ways. And so I, you know, and that had me in traveling a lot and in some, you know, bigger cities is me making the different connections into the different cities. But I've spent a lot of time in nice hotels and resort hotels. And so even that has lost its attraction for me. And so when I'm traveling on my own, I really want to be even local in that sense. Right. So I'm always looking for the, you know, the eco friendly hotel that's cut out of out of the mountainside or out of the jungle or whatever. That's where I want to be because it's much more authentic than the glass and metal structures that we have. Yeah, you can stay in anytime you want to, right?

Harry Duran 00:12:24:

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I've changed my thoughts on city living. I grew up in New York, just outside the city, and then I ended up in the city and in Brooklyn and actually Manhattan proper. And I used to love the hustle and the bustle and the energy that I would get from being there. And whenever I'd come back to visit, I'd feel that charge as soon as the taxi just landed in the city. But recently it's just like you said, it sort of lost its appeal a little bit because it's like everyone's in a box, everyone's running around or like ants. No one's smiling. I'm just like, now I'm, you know, we're on like an acre of property here. We've got chickens.

Beth Jones 00:12:56:

Yeah.

Harry Duran 00:12:56:

We've got our own. Well, and it's like that's, it's a. This is a good life.

Beth Jones 00:13:00:

And that is a good life.

Harry Duran 00:13:02:

Your perspective changes.

Beth Jones 00:13:03:

Yeah, yeah.

Harry Duran 00:13:03:

And part of it is getting older and appreciating.

Beth Jones 00:13:05:

I do think that is part of it. You're right about that. Yeah. Wiser.

Harry Duran 00:13:10:

Something like that.

Beth Jones 00:13:11:

Yeah.

Harry Duran 00:13:12:

So you teed up, you know, your early career and it was interesting to see some of the things that you got into the, you know, financial forensics and this forensic account investigating. How did you get into that industry?

Beth Jones 00:13:26:

I originally went to college to be a graphic designer. So I'm an artist in my heart and I think I'm a great artist. People can be the judge of that for themselves. It's kind of a piece outlet for me now doing the artistic work. But I met my now ex husband when we were in college. And he, I guess I would say he knew that we were going to end up married. And he probably, I don't know that he knew it directly, but there were some things about me that he could see and that he wanted. And one of them was channeling me in the direction of a career that was, in his mind going to be more lucrative than being an artist. And so I very, you know, naively made the decision to change my degree to get an accounting degree, business administration first, and then, oh, you have to major in something. I'm like, well, great, what am I going to major in? Well, you know, every company needs an accountant, so why not accountant? Like, literally that's how it went. I'm not, I mean, I'm not kidding you, Harry. That's literally how it went to decide I was going to get an accounting degree. And there was a lot of pain with that because, remember I said I'm an artist. I do have a very analytical brain as well, that I had already completed two years under my graphic design degree. And so I was literally doing only the business, administrative and accounting courses for like two and a half years. Right. It was crazy. I was an auditor for the first 10 years of my life, which was very boring. So when I came out of school, you really could become an auditor. You could prepare tax returns and at least, you know, doing audit work, you're with people, tax returns, you're basically you and a computer. Even then, early days of using computers. So I was, I did the audit work for about 10 years and got bored with that because it is rather rote in what you're doing. And the way we audit today is very different from the way that I audited back in the day and it got boring. And being a board audit partner is not a good thing. It's high risk behavior for you and your client and the firm that you work for. And luckily I just, you know, I started dabbling around actually with data and playing with data that was stored in the underlying operational and financial reporting databases for companies doing data analytics. Early days. Yeah, and I was just like fascinated by all the information that was captured in these tables. And I started doing all these crazy analytics with them and just all, I mean, doing. I was doing inventory analysis for companies at the SKU level and just, I mean, super powerful stuff. And I ended up becoming an early software tool. It's still used today, but not anything like the tools that we have today. But I ended up becoming one of their super users. I was just bitten by it and I had an Opportunity to use that on a case where I was able to entirely prove a fraud through the use of data analytics. I'm finding the actual, some really good evidence luck in that case, but really prove what they were doing to commit the fraud. And I was hooked at that point in time. I'm like, that's what I'm doing the rest of my life. And this was a day. So, you know, scandals like Enron and WorldCom and all those big scandals, Waste Management, Tyco, those had already. They were, the scandals had broken. The investigations were pretty much done. And we were in the litigation phase at that point. The bankruptcy and litigation phases of those cases, which, you know, those were 10, 12, 15 year cases by the time you went all the way through the litigation process because there was so much of it. So we were into the litigation phase. But I remember I was like, I would get anything to work on the Enron case. And I interviewed with a company called FTI Consulting that I ended up working for more than 20 years. And they had me pegged as like this nerdy accountant when I was in the interview. And they actually, they were working on. They were working for six banks who had a joint defense in the Enron case. And they had another expert who was, you know, doing some economic consulting. An expert worked for them and they needed somebody to handle the accounting side of it. And then they had me pegged from day one. That was my first project that I worked on was Enron. I was like, I'm in heaven. I have hit my stride, right? And so what I learned about that is that the left side and the right side of my brain worked very well together because the forensic aspect of it meant that no two cases were the same. And so how we would go about doing the investigation, you literally made it up from the very beginning. I'm some foundational things that we do in every investigation, kind of big ticket things around evidence collection and review and yeah, writing reports and that kind of stuff. Right. But the actual path through the maze, finding the evidence, literally the needle in the haystack was different every time, right. And I was really good at it. Really, really good at the fact finding. An interesting factoid about me is that I'm double Scorpio in my astrology. And so my sun sign and my rising sign are both Scorpio. And so what that means for me is that I am inherently born to bring light to dark truth, to secrets. And I did that for years, professionally, 20 plus years. I did that in the forensic accounting world. And then I Had an opportunity to go and do it for myself on this healing journey that I want in the core of. You know, the core of my healing journey was about bringing light to my own darkness, truth to my own secrets of my family. Not so much mine, but my family as part of the healing journey. But I'm literally. My makeup. It's literally.

Harry Duran 00:18:45:

It's in your blood, it's in your DNA.

Beth Jones 00:18:47:

Right. So lucky for me, I mean, I was. You know, I wouldn't say that I was in my purpose or really fulfilled by the work that I was doing, but I was content because I found it very interesting. It was always unique and different, but I haven't. Wasn't doing something that I felt like was in service to others, which is where I am today, which is why I'm much more in my purpose with what I do, because I'm getting to help other people, which is what I really am very passionate about.

Harry Duran 00:19:17:

Yeah, it sounds like if you're really into that and you have a knack for it, it's gotta be really exciting. And a lot of it gets glamorized now in shows like csi. And so it's like the cool intel person who's figuring out and cracking the case.

Beth Jones 00:19:31:

And thank goodness for shows like CSI where people actually began to understand what forensic and forensic accountant. And of course, now, you know, now you got Ben Affleck telling everybody what a forensic accountant is. He's made it all good for all of us, right? Oh, I know what you do, Ben Affleck. Okay. I've seen. In the early days of when I would tell people that I saw, I would get two difficult questions, and I would have to listen carefully to what people would ask me, because if they would say to me, where do you work? I would say, FTI consulting. And I would try to, like, enunciate on the T, because I'd be like, the FBI. You weren't for the FBI. What FTI consulting platform. Or I would try to explain to them being, you know, what do you do? I'm a forensic accountant. And you just sort of get this glade. They were like. And I literally had some. Someone say to me one time, you do taxes for dead people? It's like, you got it. That is exactly what I do. Taxes for dead people. Forensic academics.

Harry Duran 00:20:24: Oh, my God. That's funny.

Beth Jones 00:20:25:

I'm so funny. Yeah. Yeah.

Harry Duran 00:20:28:

Did you ever get to connect or, like, see or hear about the people that were, like, orchestrating these things? I'm just curious about, like, what connection you had to like, oh, sure, I've.

Beth Jones 00:20:38:

Interviewed people and then plenty of them.

Harry Duran 00:20:40:

Sure, yeah. Their motivations or like, how people, like, get to that point, you know.

Beth Jones 00:20:44:

Yeah. You know, I mean, a lot of it is the big stuff. It's greed motivated. And, you know, the big frauds that were there, those were really about trying to keep the company the darling of Wall Street. Right. And really trying to keep what was being reported on a quarterly or annual basis about the performance of the company. Keep it where analysts expected it to be. Right. And so they're always, you know, analysts are always pushing a company next quarter. It's gotta be even better. Even better. Even better, even better. And that's hard in three months. Snippets. Right. So many things happen to a company that make that almost impossible to sustain, but that's really what was perpetuating it. And then along with that, of course, when you're hitting those targets, the senior folks in the company and even coming down levels, they're being rewarded. And so you have this sort of just sort of this weird microcosm where you have the street saying you have to do this and then you're being rewarded for actually achieving it. You're really not incentivized, to tell the truth, when a quarter's bad. Right. In fact, you might be incentivized to try to mask it. Right. And so that's really, I would say it's, you know, greed is part of it, but I would also say really a lot of it's about ego.

Harry Duran 00:21:58:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I guess we've all had our dance with ego. And some people at different levels.

Beth Jones 00:22:04:

Sure, yeah.

Harry Duran 00:22:05:

With different dollar amounts. But it's interesting that the whole quarterly earnings cycle and trying to look good, it's just this vicious circle that keeps feeding itself. It's. And then the people that suffer are the customers of the company.

Beth Jones 00:22:17:

Yes, that's exactly right.

Harry Duran 00:22:18:

End up losing.

Beth Jones 00:22:19:

Yep. Customers and the shareholders ultimately are the ones that can. And employees, too many employees get, you know, I mean, Enron is one of those, you know, great Harvard Business Review cases that literally wiped out, I mean, everyone. Right. I mean, it was just a devastating case for anybody who even remotely touched it.

Harry Duran 00:22:37:

So you talk about in your bio about that experience as your first mountain. Right. It's. Is this something that you climbed? So talk to me about, like, the transition. And, you know, you've also mentioned your second mountain as well. How did that come about?

Beth Jones 00:22:51:

Yeah, Well, I take that from the book titled the Second Mountain, A Quest for More Alive, which is a book Written by David Brooks, which anybody who ever asks me about finding purpose and like reinventing yourself and really figuring out what are you meant to be doing. I'm always pointing like, that book helped me so much. So, you know, I am like the poster child for what David describes in that book. And so I lived for 30 plus years on my first mountain, which many of us do. And that is you go to school, you have a career, you have 2.3 kids. I don't have kids. But you're climbing the corporate ladder. You've got four cars, you got five houses, whatever it may be. Right. You're just amassing. I like to say keeping up with the Joneses, which I can say because I am a Jones. But that's what it is, Right? That's exactly what First Mountain is just continuing to grow, grow, grow. And you may be in service to your immediate family, you may be in service to arguably the organization that you're working for, but your focus really is on me and what I'm doing, Right?

Harry Duran 00:23:53:

Yeah.

Beth Jones 00:23:54:

And then Second Mountain are people who are in service to anything but themselves, basically, is how I like to think about it. Right. And so you think about that broadly, what that might be. David's theory is that men, that very few people are born on Second Mountain. You've got to be like a Mother Teresa or a Gandhi or a Martin Luther King. You're somebody like that who comes into the world and this is your purpose, and that's what you do. Most of us, according to. To him, go through a valley, and there's a pivotal point in our life that sends us into the valley. And then we spend a period of time walking in the valley and then making our way up the second mountain. And that is exactly my path. So I'm deep opping along my first mountain. Have no idea Second Mountain is coming. I have no idea there is a second mountain. No idea. Right. I had no idea.

Harry Duran 00:24:38:

You're like, I made it. I climbed the mountain. I'm good.

Beth Jones 00:24:41:

Right. I'm climbing it. I'm doing great. Right. Except empty inside, I will say that. Empty, lonely, alone inside. Which I didn't really come to learn until I went through the pivotal event. But I took a new role in my former career where I had taken a leadership position where I had a lot greater responsibility for not only a team of people across Asia, but also the clients that we were serving. And I knew that in order to perform well and succeed in that role, I was really going to have to be able to forge deeper connections with People. And. And as I was struggling, really struggling with that, it was something that I always felt resistance to, you know, just like. And not like I couldn't get enough of myself out or be open and transparent enough about myself to be able to engage. And a lot of that I came to learn because I didn't know who I was.

Harry Duran 00:25:32:

Yeah.

Beth Jones 00:25:33:

So I went into a hypnotherapy session. I met my medical doctor one day right after he'd gotten taken on this new role. And she was asking me how I was doing. And I was explaining this kind of, I guess what I would call anxiety that I was having about the role. Just like, oh, we got this woman on staff that's a hypnotherapist. You know, like, if you want to quit smoking or you want to lose some weight, it's that kind of therapy, no big deal. Maybe she can help you. I'm like, okay, sure, why not? Again, back to. I'll try anything. So here I go. That ended up being the. One of the most terrifying events that I've ever been through in my life. And it was a death and rebirth event for me. And so the person who walked into that therapy room died and never walked out. I walked out. This me walked out. And coming back to my conscious awareness, I became very aware of this massive wall that I lived behind. And it was like I crashed in. Like, I was like a wrecking ball crashing into the wall on that day. And that wall, I would come to find out, was all of my unprocessed trauma and abuse and emotions that I had just been stuffing inside of me for all these years, really. And since I was five. It began when I was five, and I had never. I really had just become emotionless. And so my inability to connect with people was because I didn't know myself and I didn't know how to emote. Like, I didn't know how to do that. Here's another fun, ironic fact about me is that my human design is to actually connect with people at a super deep level. That because of my trauma and abuse, I could not live in my highest state. Like, my highest energetic state. It was like a. Just like this cat that was sitting over it. And until I did the work to release all of that, I literally had to go find myself is what I had to do. And now I'm on the opposite side of that. And now, like, if you meet me for the first time, good chances that we're going super deep in about 30 minutes, and if we don't, we Just might not be a connection here. Right. So, like, radically transformed, even at that aspect of my life. But it is. It's a great example of how when we don't deal with trauma and abuse and our emotions in a healthy way, how that can really just suffocate us. Right. And so, you know, that event, the hypnotherapy event was sent me into the valley, and then I spent a period of time walking through the valley and on my healing journey for a lot of that. And that, you know, going back to, you know, the April point that I mentioned early on, and that was, you know, a big part of my healing was recognizing that I had this story to tell and then figuring out what is the story and how am I getting that out and what am I doing with it. And that's what I do now on my second mountain, is use my lived experiences, my story, my own experience. What I know works to help other people to shed all that stuff that we carry when we're an unhealed survivor. And that's the place where they're thriving in life, not just surviving.

Harry Duran 00:28:34:

Yeah, Yeah. I wonder what that session was like for that therapist who had no idea what she was.

Beth Jones 00:28:39:

So a normal hypnotherapy session is about 90 minutes, because it's 15 minutes to take you in to, you know, tell you. They take you down. You're an hour in therapy and that session, and 15 minutes to bring you back out. I was in her office for three and a half hours, and she didn't practice for a while after that. So it was equally as traumatic for her. She was relatively new, and I just freaked her out because she had not, you know, what I experienced was not, I want to quit smoking. Let me just tell. It was not that at all. Right. I mean, it was a terrifying event for me, and it freaked her out because she, you know, I was in the subconscious state for so long because I was in a panic and could not get me calmed down enough to where she felt like she could bring me out of that state. And so she just, you know, she took a pause. She did a lot to try to get me resources. I was living in Hong Kong at the time, you know, and Hong Kong is getting better in terms of mental health awareness and talking about it and dealing with it. And that's, you know, because I, you know, people who are actively advocating and working on that, including a very dear friend of mine who I found my way to a support group that she had started a year before. An American woman who had begun this. And it was, you know, for female survivors of either child sexual abuse or adult, you know, as an adult being sexually abused. That was her entire mission at the time, was just to develop the support group because her therapist had encouraged her to do that. And that has gone on to complete advocacy work now where she's law reform and advocacy and prevention awareness. Right. So she's really doing some really fantastic things with that. So, you know, it sort of, you know, she's on a mission with a bunch of other people in Hong Kong to change that. The resources were fairly limited. Right. And so this woman who'd been my therapist, the hypnotherapist, was trying to help me find resources. You know, unfortunately for me, I found both. Tara, who's the founder of this support group called Talk Hong Kong, which I think is a beautiful name, Talk, because that's what we need to do, and that those things happen to us. And then I found my trauma therapist there who I. She lives in California now, and I still work with her today, almost five years later. So there it is, five years later.

Harry Duran 00:30:46:

So, yeah, and kudos to the company for having a resource like that, because not, you know, not all companies do. And I think, you know, maybe they think it's like a nice to have, but in your case, it was transformational. And just to have something that you didn't even know you needed, but they had a resource for you to go to, I think is really important. And I think more companies are probably realizing that now there's, you know, betterhelp and calm and all these companies are, you know, working to mental health more of an issue.

Beth Jones 00:31:12:

I think it's, you know, it's becoming more and more, you know, more something that we're talking more and more about. You know, unfortunately, we, you know, I mean, we're, you know, we're recording right now where there's, you know, an active incident on a military base right now. Right. Where there's an active shooter on a military base. I don't know if you've seen that news today or not, but I always, you know, we still very much live in a world where mental and emotional health is showing up more in the difficult ways. It's the sad part, the hard part of it is what is more known, and we have a lot more awareness about that, and it is shifting. But it's sad to me that we're still in that state where, yeah, you know, people are still, you know, I meet people all the time who were like, I could never talk about What I've been through. Like, you talk about it, I'm like, sure, you can. I'm like, why not? Like, you know, of course, you're just part of who you are. Right. I mean, there's. There's, you know, there's no stigma to be attached to it, but unfortunately there is. And there are, you know, so many people who aren't getting the help that. That they need. So I am a huge advocate for that and a huge advocate for getting proper therapeutic treatment if you need to have it. So it's been something that's saved my life. I mean, trauma therapy. My therapist, she's literally helped to save my life. Literally. Yeah. And I can. You know, it's work, and it did take me a long time to get to somebody who could actually help me, but once I was there, it's been amazing what she's been able to help me do, and I'm just a huge advocate for getting her. It's part of what I do is to help people to get through that process of the pain of going through finding a therapist that works for you, because it can be challenging the chances of you finding the right person the first time out of the gate. Maybe not, but my experience. Right. So that's a deterrent. Right. If you spend time with someone and then there's not a match there for some reason.

Harry Duran 00:32:58:

Of course. Especially if it's your first experience with one.

Beth Jones 00:33:00:

Yeah, it can be a deterrent to continuing because that's painful. You have to tell your story again, and that hurts. It's painful. Right. And so. But I, you know, got some experience with that, and I know what made it different for me once it worked. And so that's the type of thing that I like to work with people on.

Harry Duran 00:33:15:

Yeah, it's really important. And I think it's the more people talking about these issues, we think there's like, oh, there's enough people talking about this topic, and there's enough people talking about trauma. You know, we're going to. We'll get to your podcast as well. But I think you just alluded to people who just have that block and feel shame or feel whatever it is that keeps them from talking. And I think it's just they need to hear it several times if they need to hear someone else hear a similar story that's maybe even worse than theirs, and they're like, okay, yeah, like, maybe. And. But it's. For some people, it takes, you know, repeated exposure to, you know, brave people like yourself to feel like it's okay. For them, and it's safe for them. So I think the more these conversations happen, the better.

Beth Jones 00:33:54:

I mean, are you like me? I mean, I didn't know until I was 50. I literally didn't know that I had something I needed to deal with until I was 50 years old. And it just kept building for 45 years, and I. All of a sudden, I'm confronted with it, you know, so that, you know, that is. And I. People had, you know, I've been building, reinventing myself and building this platform, you know, courses as, you know, and working with you. You'll probably ask me the question, so I'm going to answer for you right now. People say to me, who's your target audience? I'm like, everybody in the world, literally, because we've all suffered trauma and abuse, and every one of us is at a varying degree of healing. Right. There is no end destination on healing. Right. I mean, you're. And that's because we are humans. We continue to have the human experience in relationships where a lot of our pain comes from. And so we're always going to be healing because there's a new experience with someone or something that has harmed us. So it's happily. But where we hope to get to is in a place where we've done it once for the past, the really hard stuff that we've already survived, and now we have a skill set where we're quicker and more resilient when we face those challenges in the future, and we know what to do in order to deal with the situation and move ourselves forward. Right. And so when I tell you that literally every person on this planet is my audience. Right. Because we're all humans with that experience.

Harry Duran 00:35:15:

We've all gone through some stuff.

Beth Jones 00:35:16:

Yeah. Yes, exactly.

Harry Duran 00:35:18:

So talk about your journey out of that path and you know, what led you to the book?

Beth Jones 00:35:24:

Well, the day that I spent with April, she didn't like the phrase that I used to use about what I did that day, and so I'll use hers. I poured out the 2,000 puzzle pieces on a table and just, like, spun them all around and said, here, what do we do with this? Right?

Harry Duran 00:35:37:

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Beth Jones 00:35:39:

It's funny to hear her tell the story about us, too, because when I sent her a message and told her I thought I had a story and that I wanted to come and spend some time with her, she'll tell you that she was like, what story could Beth possibly have? Because she had the professional me. Right. And so you have to, you know, that professional me was the quintessential businesswoman. Right? You see me in a suit. I, you know, very in command. It was very good at what I did. And so I was very much in command of the room and whatever was happening. Right. You know, that's the image that she had of me. And then she also had this other exalted image of me, which really makes me laugh from when we were in college and our fraternity days, because I was a senior when she came in as a freshman. And so, you know, you remember that, you know, like, when you're a freshman in high school, you see the seniors or freshman colleges. She had that, like. And she spent a lot of time with me, just sort of a group within the group of the fraternity. And so just a very. Had a very different image in her head when I said to her, I think I have a story. And she was like, what story could she possibly. But I poured out to her one day what I was going through and what I had learned about myself at that point in time. And she was like, you have to write your story in this book. So she was in the middle of a three book series that she did that are three. It's three collaborative books. And the second book was. They were about to start the process on the second book, which is titled Step into your Brave. She was like, you like, so much courage and so much bravery with everything that you're doing. You have to tell your story in this book again. Because I'll try anything. Sure, why not? Of course I'll write my job. I'll write my story for this book. And so I did.

Harry Duran 00:37:19:

How hard could it be?

Beth Jones 00:37:21:

Yeah. And it was an amazing experience. But once I got to the end of it, I was like, yeah, I'm done. I'm like, I'm not one and done. No more writing. That's it for me. And actually, I'm a good writer. So I wrote a ton professionally, right? And I enjoy the writing process and sort of the, you know, the build and the layout and sort of, you know, the process through the writing and all of that. But, you know, that obviously is deeply personal, very different from professional writing. So that book came out in October of 2022. And then in the summer of 2023, my therapist started doing a little research on my brain, which she likes to do from time to time, kind of picking at my brain, like, wanting to understand what's up there because. Just because of the way that I can process things. So she started asking me about what I thought about the concept of forgiveness and we talked about it for three months. And in those three months, I went out and did some research on books that I could find on forgiveness. And now what people tell me is, well, you wrote the book you couldn't find, and that is the truth. So it was everything. Like, everything that I was finding in the books that I was researching just didn't sit well with me. And it was everything from the COVID of the book. So actually, if you see this color behind me, that's the main color on the COVID of my book. Because it's bright, right? It's bright, yeah. Happy. And I was, you know, I was seeing this color, you know, their color, or, you know, sorry, you know, black kind of, you know, like dark, ugly colors. I was. I shouldn't say ugly, but dark, drab colors is what I was seeing in a lot of the. In covers. They just didn't evoke happiness. And I was in this very happy, jubilant place because of what I had gone through to heal myself. And then the other thing that I would. Two other things I found is you literally can pick between, like, four and 12. You can pick the four steps, the five steps, the eight steps, the nine steps, the 10 steps to forgiveness. And I was like, okay, so what is it your favorite number? I'm like, what do you think? Right. I don't know. And then the last thing was most of the books advance the idea that you either have to heal to forgive or forgive to heal. And I was like, well, I don't know. Which is it? Right? So none of it sat well with me. And ultimately, you know, what I've found for myself is it's not. I'm never going to be in the place to say to you, I'll take my grandfather, for example, first person who abused me. I'm never going to be able to be in a place to say to him, I forgive you for what you did to me. Because what he did to me was heinous, vile. It was terrible, traumatic. It deeply scarred me, wounded me, for I carried it for 45 years to extend. It's always going to live with me, Right. That act is not forgivable. Right. And so I'm never going to be in that place to forgive that. And really, unfortunately for him, the only thing I know about him are things like that. Right? So I'm never going to be in that place. But where I've come to is that I've been able to let go of any emotions attached to him that were constraining me from being able to show up in love. Right? That's where I came to. And ultimately, that's what I've. What's what I learned on my journey. Right. And so going through that whole process of trying to kind of figure out for myself, what do I think about all these books, what's missing? I have a different viewpoint on it. How did I get here? Like, all of that was ruminating in those three months. And then my aunt died, and she. So it was my grandfather on my dad's side. This is my dad's sister, and she was abused quite extensively by father, my grandfather. And the day she died, I knew that I was writing the book, and I was writing it for her to begin as the first survivor that I honored was her. And then I've written it for every other survivor, including myself, who's been through something painful in their life that has wounded them. So once I made the decision, that was in September of 2023, and it was just. I mean, it was, you know, a year later, the book was out at the. In October of 2024. And I probably could have published it three or four months before I did, but timing, you know, I believe in the astrology and the energy of the universe. When was the right time for me to put it out? And so I held it until October. But my coach that I hired to get me through the writing and publishing process, she said to me at the end, she's like, I always leave room for the snafu, because it's always going to happen. Show me. It's the first process she had ever been through, that it was seamless from the beginning to the end. Wow. And it's, you know, because the. It's supposed to be out there. The book is supposed to be out there. This is where I supposed to be doing second mountain, right? Here's my second mountain coming to life, right? And so that, you know, after I was. When the book was finished, I was actually again down with April in the summer, last summer, and probably in June or July, just spending some time with her. And we were talking about, like, what's next and where am I going with all of this? You know, And I was like, well, I'm going to keep writing a blog because I'm enjoying the writing and I have more to say. And so that's. You have stories to tell, and so that's where I'm going to do it. She's like, well, you know, if you record a blog, you have a podcast episode, and if you record it, you now have content for YouTube. And I was like, and let's Heal with Beth Jones was born. I was like, okay, well, this is where we're going. I did have to go home, though. You know, I had to go. I had to be sure that I was going to be able to keep a podcast going. And, you know, it was important to me to know that I had a pipeline of episodes before I started it, and I'd actually been thinking of having written a collaborative book. Of course, you get those same kind of ideas when you're, you know, when you're transitioning. Like, when you're, like, you literally reinventing yourself as you're moving, but you don't really know you're reinventing yourself, which is what I went through for a period of time. So it was happening to me. And so I had this idea, well, maybe I'm going to do a collaborative book. And I'm going to do it around, you know, people in the professional world who are dealing with their, you know, real challenges, and they're having to go through a healing journey at the same time that they're trying to do work. Right? And I want to be. I want, you know, managers and leaders and CEOs. That's the kind of people that I want, because that had been me, right? That's where I was, right? I mean, I have this big job, and there were some days I can't get out of bed, right as I was really, you know, so what that entire experience had been like for me, like, I was like, well, that's what I'm gonna, You know, So I already had people that I knew were going through some sort of. They'd had some sort of trauma or abuse. They were going through some sort of healing journey. So I'd already started to kind of pull that list together. And so when we had the conversation about the podcast, I was like, oh. And so I just went and built off of that, and I sat down, and within a weekend, I had a list of over 50 people who I knew that I was going to be able to reach out to and say, hey, would you do this? Obviously, you know, being in this format and being on camera and telling your story this way is different than writing what you want in a book, right? You have some person asking you a question you may or may not want to answer, right?

Harry Duran 00:44:10:

Yeah. Yeah.

Beth Jones 00:44:11:

I don't ever do that to my guests. But there is that natural hesitation, right. It's different to be in a book than it is to be on someone's show. But that, you know, all of that let me know that there was definitely a platform there. I had access to the guest, and that has just, you know, continue to grow. And some of the people who are on that initial list are way down my list now because I meet so many more people that are coming into the fray that I bring onto the show. It's just been a natural evolution, you know, and I'm all about healing. That's why the show's called let's Heal with Beth Jones. And that's what I share my stories. I have other survivors on there who tell their stories. I don't focus on the trauma. We focus on the healing. Although I do give every guest an opportunity to say whatever they want to say about how they arrived at a place where they needed to heal. Right. So there is, you know, so we do get into a little bit is they're comfortable sharing, but the purpose is not to talk about the painful stuff. The purpose is to talk about the happy stuff getting to the good place. Right. And then I also bring on the practitioners who administer the modalities that help us to heal. Right. So it's a, you know, just all things dedicated to healing. Right. And so it's just. It's been a great mix. I had a lot of fun with it. It really is a great amount of fun. And I just Today released episode 27 went out today, so. Just launched in January. Yeah, 27 already went out. So when I first I was like, well, I'll probably. Maybe I'll do one a month, you know. And of course, you know, people are always somebody like me. I have people, like, all the time, like, oh, I see you. I can help you. I want to help you. Right. So people giving me all these ideas, and luckily for me, a lot of that, you know, I'm pretty good at taking on and kind of chewing and what resonates with me. And so at first I was like, well, if I get one out a month, that'll be fine. And then, oh, no, you have to have it at 8am on Tuesday morning every single Tuesday of every single week, like clockwork, and ask. I was like, well, that is never going for me because I am not that prescriptive at all.

Harry Duran 00:46:04:

Yeah.

Beth Jones 00:46:04:

So I've committed. I get one out. I think I'm averaging every 10 days now. So. And that cadence works for me. So, you know, when I do, that's what's important. Yeah, well, little advertising before it drops, let people know it's coming and a little bit afterward and. But yeah, it's worked Out. That cadence has worked out just fine for me. We've had 27 episodes already. I'm like, wow, it's, you know, the first of August and I've already done that many. It's pretty cool. It's been fun. I really enjoy it.

Harry Duran 00:46:28:

The biggest challenge in the beginning is for folks to get started. You know, they hold off on press and record. And then there's that POD fading number, which I think is seven according, depending on who you ask. And so that's when you realize, like, what you signed up for. And you're like, oh, I gotta keep doing this. And so, you know, and I ask that myself that all the time. I'm 11 years in 380 episodes, so you can. By the math, you can tell that I haven't been weekly. But, yeah, I strive to. But I think what's more important is just to be consistent. And I think for me, it helps me improve my skills as an interviewer, my conversational skills. And so I'm curious what that journey's been like for you, especially when you're dealing with such a challenging topic, you know, of trauma, abuse. You know, these are not easy conversations, and it's not like a lighthearted, you know, you and your bestie talking about social stuff or, you know, the news. You're talking about real stuff that people have gone through. And so how did you come to kind of find your voice in the seat of the host to hold space for these, you know, really powerful conversations?

Beth Jones 00:47:34:

When I said earlier that my human design is being able to connect at a very deep level and quickly with people, part of the reason why I'm able to do that is because I have a sort of disarming nature about the way that I interact with people, and I can read what's happening. And so if I feel like we're getting into a place where I can see that someone is having a reaction, it's a pause to hold the space. Can you go on or not? Right. And to have the empathy and the compassion for that person. You know, I think, you know, there's some art to being a host where you do a little work to make sure guest is going to be okay.

Harry Duran 00:48:15:

Yeah.

Beth Jones 00:48:15:

Right. And so I have done, you know, I have done some of that, and I have met people who have amazing stories that I would love to bring on the show, and hopefully I will get to do that someday. But sometimes I'm just not quite sure that they're in that place where they're ready, you know, and then, you know, in fact, I, you know, actually I taped an episode earlier this week for the first time where going into it, I was a little. A little bit concerned about how the person was going to do, and the individual did really well. We got through the conversation without any challenges, but I can tell that some of it is still quite raw. And so I try to, you know, try to stay away from that. And I do think that because I focus on the healing, and I'm very clear within that's what we want to focus on. And a lot of, you know, these people are pained, a purpose people, a lot of them, right. And so that is their purpose, is to share that out. And that's what we focus on, is the healing journey that gets them to purpose. Because that's why people like me tell our stories, right? To be able to help other people. And there's so many people like me out there, and I'm trying to highlight those people. And so that is a way to be able to move away from that place where if it gets uncomfortable for them to be able to. For me to help move them out of that when I see it. But it's also why I say to them in prep, I'm going to say to you, there's a reason why you needed to heal. What would you like to say about that? And you can say as. As little or as much as you want to about that. And I say that on air, and then that's where we go. So they know that's coming, and they know that I'm not looking for them to, like, dig into that. And. Yeah, but, you know, I mean, you had a reason to heal, right? And so. And I find that people can. Most people can say, you know, they can give the label to whatever it is that they experienced without digging down into the emotion that is attached to stay away from that. But inevitably, you know, that emotion is always there with us, you know, so inevitably it will. You will see it. And actually, a lot of my guests, you see it in a lot of them. It passes for a moment. You see that it's there. You know, it's still living. And even for me, sometimes the emotion will come up as we're talking because it's, you know, it's never. It's always going to be with us.

Harry Duran 00:50:31:

Yeah.

Beth Jones 00:50:31:

Yeah.

Harry Duran 00:50:32:

Well, kudos to you for being able to, you know, continue to improve with that skill set because it's a special place you're holding, you know, for these conversations. And it's not easy. So, yeah, you're doing good. Work. And I think the people, I'm sure, appreciate it. And giving a voice to these stories is so important because it's just another avenue for people to realize that they're not alone.

Beth Jones 00:50:54:

That's why it's so important.

Harry Duran 00:50:55:

That's really important.

Beth Jones 00:50:56:

Yeah. Yeah. You know, and I mean, like, you know, the. What I said earlier, you know, the. It's actively happening today. It's just so sad that we are. So much of that is still happening. And I feel blessed and honored to be in a place where I can just do my little part to try to help people not be in that space where, you know, the answer for them is catastrophic in way or another. And that's the reality of what we're talking about with what many of us have been through, myself included. Right. Spent years, like, trying to destroy my life. I was super successful professionally, but personally, I was in a very different place. And, you know, and doing some things that were dangerous, you know, reckless, could have been catastrophic. And that is just sometimes where we find ourselves when we've been harmed in that way and we haven't had an opportunity to process that out and deal with it. And we're unsure about whether we're lovable or, you know, can I love. Can somebody. I mean, there's all kind of crazy stuff that goes into our mind that, you know, really can be quite harmful. And catastrophic is a good word for it. And that's really what I'm hoping to do is just, you know, it's. What I'm doing is my small part to help people to see that it's okay to talk about it and that they're not alone and that you can get help. And that's my. That's. You know, the subtitle of my book is you, too can heal for a reason. Right. Because I know you can. I did it. I feel that anybody can do it. Right. And, you know, it's. It's simple. It's hard, but it really is. What you need to do in order to be able to heal is actually quite simple. The work is just hard to get through it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's worth. On the other side for sure.

Harry Duran 00:52:34:

And I'm honored to be working with you. You know, we're gonna.

Beth Jones 00:52:37:

I'm excited.

Harry Duran 00:52:38:

Some time together over the next couple of months to. To see what we can do to.

Beth Jones 00:52:40:

Yeah, I'm excited.

Harry Duran 00:52:41:

Help streamline and grow your show. So that's gonna be fun. Yeah. A couple questions as we wrap up. What's something. You've changed your Mind about recently owning a home.

Beth Jones 00:52:50:

Oh, like, literally, like, I just closed on this home. I mean, I made the decision sometime in March that I was going to be a homeowner. And that was only because. So I rented. I've been renting for. I entered 2021, paying the housing costs on five places in this world, which was a stupid amount of money every single month. And so when I moved back to the us all I had was my rent because I had. Divorce was done by then, and that's it. I had rent. I'm like, I'm just going to be a renter because there's a. I mean, when I say ptsd, home ownership, ptsd. I'm not kidding. Again, if. I mean, that's a whole. Another podcast episode about, like, what I.

Harry Duran 00:53:22:

Experienced, the homeowners podcast.

Beth Jones 00:53:24:

I was like the whole life, never, ever, ever, ever again. Never am I going to own.

Harry Duran 00:53:29:

Yeah.

Beth Jones 00:53:30:

And in March, and that went actually really quite quickly, making a decision to buy the house and finding it. And now I'm in this place that I feel is home. Right. And so I know I made the right decision, but that was a big one.

Harry Duran 00:53:44:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I can relate to that because I think. I don't think I've ever lived in any place besides my childhood home for more than three years or four years, because with my ex, you know, we were in New York and then Atlanta, then we came back to New York and moved to la. And so it was always different and it was always interesting, this idea of, like, home and what does home mean? And, you know, home is where the heart is. And so what is that? Yeah, what does that even mean? So where we're at now, I think is we're going on three years, but it feels like home because of, like, the calming nature of what it feels like to be here and the surrounding area and the quiet that you hear when you go to sleep. So those are the things that matter.

Beth Jones 00:54:20:

Such a great feeling, isn't it?

Harry Duran 00:54:21:

Yeah, it is.

Beth Jones 00:54:22:

Yeah.

Harry Duran 00:54:23:

What is the most misunderstood thing about you?

Beth Jones 00:54:27:

Oh, the most misunderstood thing about me is. So I'm. Today I'm an open book and very transparent. There are people in my family where I'm still trying to heal some of the family issues that are there misunderstood in that place. But I think the most misunderstood thing about me, something that I've revealed and brought light to, and it's sort of what I alluded to just a moment ago, being a radically different person today than the one who people knew me as. Right. So even the Example that I gave of April, where she had sort of this exalted, elevated, kind of, you know, picture perfect view of who I was, and I'm not that person at all. Inside of me, I was not that person at all. Right. And so, I mean, they're like, literally everybody in my life misunderstood me because I just let that live because I thought that, I mean, you know, and I'm not faulting myself or saying that I was making it up or anything. You know, it's just where I evolved to as a survivor, living in my unhealed survivor state. Right? And so that entire person that I wore a bunch of masks that everybody else gave to me and because. And I took them on happily and like, they became my Achilles heel in many instances. And because of that, I was very misunderstood, and I'm not in that place anymore because I'm very clear about who I am, and I've taken all that off. Right. I have a journey to get to where I am today. But, you know, I'm very transparent about who I am and very open, so I try really hard to avoid those ideas that might not be accurate about who I actually am.

Harry Duran 00:56:09:

Well, thank you for being so open about your journey. And it seems like it's. The story is still. There's still more to be told, and I think there's a lot more coming. But it's interesting to see, you know, that your journey and your path and, you know, how you were raised and where you grew up and the experience you had there and how successful you were in life. But, like, you know, it's almost like that picture they keep giving. The picture of the duck who's calm on the surface, but underneath, like, everything's kind of, like, hectic and crazy, and maybe it even wasn't underneath. It was inside, you know, for you. And so, you know, and having been in corporate for 20 plus years, you know, I look back at that person, too, and I'm just like, well, I just not, you know, there's aspects that I don't resonate with and I, you know, not me. And just. I think that things I said and things I did, you know, and you just grow and you just mature, and when you know better, you do better. So it's been exciting to get connected and then to come into your world and to see what you're doing, and it's very powerful stuff.

Beth Jones 00:57:04:

So thank you.

Harry Duran 00:57:05:

I'm excited to see what's next, and I'm thankful for you coming on and being so open about your journey, excited.

Beth Jones 00:57:12:

To work with you. I'm really, I think it's going to be a really great thing. I don't know where this journey is. I'm along for the ride, so. Yeah, we'll figure it out.

Harry Duran 00:57:19:

Yeah, it'll be fun.

Beth Jones 00:57:20:

Yeah.

Harry Duran 00:57:20:

So where's the best place for folks to connect with you if you want to learn more?

Beth Jones 00:57:23:

The best place either through my website, which is empowered survivors.com connect with me there or you can find me anywhere on social media at Beth Jones healing mentor is my handle everywhere, especially on YouTube. So go find me on YouTube and please subscribe to my channel. It's where you can find my show. Let's heal with Beth Jones and we'll.

Harry Duran 00:57:45:

Make sure all those links are in the show notes. Thanks again, Beth. I really enjoyed this conversation.

Beth Jones 00:57:49:

Thanks, Harry. Me too. Have a great day.

Harry Duran 00:57:51:

You too.