374: Hunter Toran: Navigating Men’s Work and the Path to Elderhood

Hunter Toran 00:00:00:

Literally. Men are so stubborn, sometimes they need to be punched in the face in order to feel something or, you know, a lot of time, you know, for me, what I thought was great was they would violate an agreement.

Harry Duran 00:00:10:

Yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:00:11:

And then it's like, okay, man, like you cannot keep this agreement. Where else is that happening?

Harry Duran 00:00:15:

Yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:00:16:

And so really powerful door opener to those kind of things. Facing a fear, always a great idea, you know, and feeling, you know, competent in the body. It's, you know, and then. But then there were places where I began to reject it entirely, which was Saturday nights. The big Saturday night.

Harry Duran 00:00:36:

So, brother Hunter Toren, thank you so much for joining me on podcast Junkies.

Hunter Toran 00:00:41:

Good to be here, brother.

Harry Duran 00:00:42:

It's so funny, I didn't realize, but as I was getting ready, this is the shirt that I bought when I went to that first Sacred Sons event in Vernon because I went to the REI store and I'm like, I need a shirt for this event. And I remember being in Seattle. So funny that, you know. And we'll get into that event as well. So I think. And I just realized I'm wearing a Sacrones T shirt. So maybe there was like some energy floating around in my head around this morning thinking about this conversation.

Hunter Toran 00:01:09:

Right on.

Harry Duran 00:01:09:

For folks that are meeting you for the first time, where's home?

Hunter Toran 00:01:13:

I'm in Seattle, Washington.

Harry Duran 00:01:14:

Seattle, born and raised?

Hunter Toran 00:01:16:

No, no. I grew up on the east coast, mostly in Rhode island and Washington, D.C. to a certain extent.

Harry Duran 00:01:23:

Okay.

Hunter Toran 00:01:23:

And then I lived for about 18 years in Western Massachusetts and raised my kids there for the most part. And then we moved out here seven years ago.

Harry Duran 00:01:32:

Okay. Yeah. I grew up in New York, Yonkers, New York, just outside Manhattan. And I've lived in New York City. And then I had a chance to spend some time, four years in la. How would you describe the energy between East Coast, West Coast?

Hunter Toran 00:01:47:

Well, the place where I sense it the most is at four way stops. You know, being from the East Coast, I'm trained to sense even the slightest hesitation. So this urge to be polite and non intrusive on the west coast plays out a lot there, you know, so I just go most of the time when I sense that, you know, really it's. Seattle has its own particular flavor. I have spent quite a bit of time in California and Oregon and as well. And it's. Yeah, this is, It's. You know, people are in their own world to a certain degree here. I think heavy skies and the rain make people look at the ground. I've been working with a client Lately. And trying to get him to lift his. His eyes is difficult, you know? So, yeah, I love it here. The land is beautiful and I've met a lot of good people. And if I catch you hesitating at the four way, I'm going.

Harry Duran 00:02:36:

So it's that same vibe as New York City crossing streets. Like, there's no such thing as cross at the corner, at the intersection. Like, if I'm in the middle of the street and there's no cars coming, you just go. And if you're not used to it, my girlfriend's like, what are you doing? Like, why? And I'm like, why are we walking to the intersection? Like, we can go. Let's go. Clear.

Hunter Toran 00:02:54:

Yeah, yeah, go, go, go. Right?

Harry Duran 00:02:56:

Yeah, yeah. I would realize that I'd be in the sidewalks, and there's people that walk slow on sidewalks too, and just like, come on, like, I got to go somewhere. And I think it's the hustle, bustle mentality. And it's something that I had to unlearn, especially here, being in Minnesota. Now, when I first got here, my partner would say, how come you don't say hi to anyone? Or, you know, you go to a restaurant and get a reservation? I'm like, you know, duran, table of two. And she's like, ask them how their day was. And there's a thing is called the Minnesota goodbye, which is like 15 minutes to say goodbye to someone. Because, you know, so I say goodbye, I've turned around and I'm leaving. And here it's like, oh, and one more thing, and one more thing. And so this adjusting to different cultures, even within the same countries is pretty wild. And take some acclimating.

Hunter Toran 00:03:42:

Yeah. And I mean, New York City is really a beast all to itself. The pace and the sheer amount of human will and story condensed into that area really is. It's almost unsafe to open too much of oneself and linger. But it's. Yeah, I don't know. My hat's off to anyone who's lived there. I always like to visit, but it was always good to go home, too.

Harry Duran 00:04:04:

And for a while, I almost relished that frenetic energy. And I thought for the longest time I'd have an apartment in the city. It's go, go, go. Every time I would come back to visit, I'd feel that electric charge that you get from being downtown. But then recently, a couple years ago, I was there for a conference, and I was taking a cab to the conference from my friend's house, friend's apartment, and just Watching everybody is just, it smells like ants, you know, like everyone, no one was really smiling. And whether it was the construction worker carrying two by fours into a high rise, the Uber driver on his scooter, the woman in her like business suit and sneakers heading to work, like, everyone's just like going, going, going. It was just fascinating to watch it from that perspective. And like, man, it's just, there's something about the energy there that I used to love and I don't anymore. Maybe it's a function of getting older as well.

Hunter Toran 00:04:50:

Yeah, you know, it's. I think it's also when we become more social in our later years, we begin to, I don't want to know if not be offended, but when we see people wearing masks, it's just kind of, for me, it's a turn off, you know, because I think so much of what we do, the work we've done and what I'm moving towards is a vulnerability, you know, and you're not going to find that on the streets of New York City so much, but it is that authentic connection that feeds us and brings us forward into a cooperative way. So, you know, in New York City, everyone's kind of on their dream and their family sell and, you know, whatever beyond that. So, yeah, it's hats off to New York City, everybody. Anyone who's trying to make it there today.

Harry Duran 00:05:33:

As Frank said, right.

Hunter Toran 00:05:34:

You make it there anywhere.

Harry Duran 00:05:39:

So I'm curious, you know, we'll get into a lot of your journey and your backstory and how we met, but when did you start to become aware of your own journey and started to like, look inwards and think about things that, you know, some people never do and they'll get to their 60s and realize they've never done any self work. They've never done, you know, some of the work we've done, men's work as well, which is just as important. I'm curious if you could point back or look back at a time in your own personal journey. When did the light go off for you? Maybe it's always been on, but I've just this awareness of, like, there's something more to life. I need to ask more questions and I need to develop myself more.

Hunter Toran 00:06:18:

Yeah, well, the need to develop myself more, you know, really, people ask me this question a lot and I'm immediately always drawn to just being a child in a Quaker congregation, in a congregation of silent devotion, where it's agreed upon that each and every one has the light of Creator within them and has the ability to Speak from that deep well of source. You know, at the age I was at, I wasn't intellectualizing anything, you know, but I was very curious and like, you know, living into prayer for the first time and noticing how the silence itself was rich with this supportive energy, you know, and. And then I went into, you know, the dark days of being a teenager. And then I often say I was rescued by my first hippie girlfriend. You know, it's like, why are you so angry all the time? Like, what's going on? What is this? And actually at that time, my mom was into a transcendental meditation and she. I was trained and got a. Got my own mantra and then began meditating, realizing that I could actually have an effect. So that was about 17 years old when I started to live a meditative life a little more.

Harry Duran 00:07:33:

Who were your role models growing up?

Hunter Toran 00:07:35:

Who were my role models? The ocean was a role model. I grew up a little bit in Rhode island as kind of a wharf rat, you know, okay. Surfing boat and crab and fishing.

Harry Duran 00:07:46:

Yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:07:47:

You know, and then outside of my parents, you know, and this is, you know, part of the root of my podcast New Altruism is like, actually it's hard to look back and find many mentors.

Harry Duran 00:07:59:

Yeah, yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:08:00:

I was always a voracious reader and an experimenter, you know, got into a little bit of psychedelics in my teen years too. So I would say that the molecules were mentors to a certain degree. And then I would say, like the most influential people that I looked up to were actually. My father lived in Washington D.C. and he lived in Shaw, which is right near Howard University. So all around me there were radical black book shops. You know, the fruit of Islam was there. I saw these very noble and powerful black folk during the crack epidemic side by side with what was going on in the ghetto in the great deterioration. So I would say that just the urban environment itself was a great mentor to me as like a more of a quiet rural kid who, you know, I've always been an observer, a watcher of human beings and being in those environments, being around Caribbeans and Africans, you know, like, my father would have a suits made at this place called Kingsley's, which was a man from Mali.

Harry Duran 00:09:03:

Yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:09:03:

Would custom making suits. And so I would go hang out with Kingsley sometime just because he was so great to be around and so warm and welcoming to me. And, you know, I had a couple teachers. It was funny, I was thinking about in. In high school, I had a teacher who Mr. Caruso, and he taught media studies and we read like Marshall McLuhan, we read Brave New World, we've read 1984. And I actually have begun to realize how much he helped to shape my. How I query, you know, like how I look at things and am I participating? Am I just feeding, being fed something, you know, in terms of media? And I can see that as like a marker of understanding what sovereign thinking is. You know, it wasn't intellectualized at that point, but he made me very watchful of what I'm being shown and told at an early age. And so he was a great mentor. And then I had, I went into agriculture for quite a while and I had great mentors there. You know, farmers, men and women, just salt to the earth taught me how to work, how to put in a 14 hour day without complaining, you know, and just how good a lemonade does taste after putting in a 14 hour day. And eventually, you know, my teacher in somatics, Jamie McMillan, who I studied with him for about eight years, was a huge mentor. Yeah, you know, it's one of those things where it's, it's not built in anymore. Right. You know, the elders are missing so we have to go and search them out. And you know, of course, you know, my destiny brought people into my life and you know, learning to listen to elders is a whole other thing. So I'm still, you know, learning that and looking at the places where I may have pushed away something that would have been really rich for me. And so. Yeah.

Harry Duran 00:10:46:

You've also mentioned being influenced by the teachings of Haile Tulassie.

Hunter Toran 00:10:50:

Yeah, very much. You know, being around Jamaicans and people from the Virgin Islands and the teachings of His Imperial Majesty came into my life really early, you know, in my late teens. And I was influenced by his, his autobiography and also his work in international diplomacy as well. Yeah, yeah. And just his, his take on humanity in general at understanding that we're at a threshold time, that we're coming into a new age, you know, and that's without all the biblical prophecy and such. But it's, I think it's an important individual to learn about.

Harry Duran 00:11:25:

And. Did you study Rastafarian? I knew I was going to mess that one up.

Hunter Toran 00:11:30:

There's no ism if you talk to them. Just Rastafari.

Harry Duran 00:11:33:

Rastafari, yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:11:35:

Rastafari.

Harry Duran 00:11:36:

Yeah, yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:11:37:

I'm sorry, did I study?

Harry Duran 00:11:39:

Yeah. Did you practice? Are you practicing it or.

Hunter Toran 00:11:42:

Yeah, I mean, what does that even mean? You know, I have a conscious levity. They would call it, you know, like your libity is the sum total of how you live and to live a prayerful life. But, you know, Rastas are not unified in their doctrine at all. You know, just like anything where a spiritual inspiration comes through, there's groups. There's extremely orthodox groups. There's ones who are more in touch with nature. I was a good fortune to be around, like, countrymen, like, farmer farmers and stuff. I would work in the orchards a lot, and there'd be a lot of Jamaicans there. So it's really always been the countrymen that I relate to the most. The ones who are living raw on the land. And really, them being an extension of the Maroon people who were free in Jamaica for 300 years or something. You know, they were the original Spanish slaves. The English Armada shows up. The Spanish bounce to the other side of the island. They leave all these slaves there. The slaves just. They go up into the cockpit country, and they stay there, and they're free. The only ones to ever win a treaty from the English empire, the only guerrilla army ever, you know, and so the roots of Rastafari and that wisdom is in the. Is from the hills of Jamaica, really, from the Maroon people.

Harry Duran 00:12:53:

We've talked a lot in our time together about the importance of understanding the indigenous nature of, you know, the lands that we're on. And thank you for that. You know, that constant reminder when we've done work together, when did this become something that was becoming in your, you know, sphere of existence, knowledge, understanding? You know, we're taught Columbus early on, and then we quickly realized, wait a minute, there's more to this story. And the more we peel back the onion, the more it gets sadder and sadder, and we just start to realize how much of an impact, you know, colonialism has had in all over the world.

Hunter Toran 00:13:30:

Sure, yeah. You know, I read Howard Zinn a bunch in my 20s, so I had a understanding that this colonial way of conquest was barbaric in its nature, murderous in its doings, you know, so always leaned away from that. But, you know, I definitely came into more consciousness around it. You know, I read, you know, the books and stuff, but it's. It was more like, you know, people started doing land acknowledgments. I saw that, and I'm like, okay, that's a good idea. That helped me to dive deeper in. But then I was like, you know what? This is starting to feel hollow. Just these land acknowledgments and realizing that I wanted to bring people more towards the awareness it requires to be indigenous or be Steeped in belonging, which is a longer road and is really an unseen road. You know, it's about time invested unseen in the relationships. And, you know, Western esotericism, which I'm, you know, a child of, is not far from indigenous animism. You know, the world is alive. It is a unified body with a myriad of sovereign and group minds within it. So for, you know, for me, I'm always, like, wanting to be a problem solver. And I saw this conflict in the culture wars, and, you know, it's like, not. People were making new rule. You can say this, you can't say this. You can sing this song. You can't sing this song, you know, and like, for me, it was just all dividing people.

Harry Duran 00:15:03:

Yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:15:03:

You know, and working so closely with Kale Kaalikahi and listening to him, learning from him, seeing the wounds, seeing how it was best to show up for him, and realizing that the commitment needs not to be to the words, not even, like, the land. Acknowledgments and the people and acknowledgments. The history is important, but it's really about moving into this awareness that allows a living animism to arise within one's soul and give them, you know, their own direct link to ancestry and creator through the land. And seeing the land as a reflection of creation, which I always have. But it began to accelerate more into. The aim of the teachings of the Somatics was like, why are we doing Somatics? Yeah, we want to be out of pain. Yeah, we want to, you know, feel stronger and more mobility. But can we also, at the same time, increase our awareness so that our intuition comes deeper online, so that we begin to notice more how the world reacts to our thoughts, how it reflects and how the ancestors speak to us through the animals and the ways that nature moved. And can we slow down enough to not always be taking, but to see how our own cycle of gratitude and praise moves into this reciprocal relationship of understanding, you know, and beginning to create culture operatively with the spirit of the land, you know, which is how Hawthorne ceremony came about.

Harry Duran 00:16:40:

I think it's. It requires slowing down, and it's something that I'm aware of, you know, being an entrepreneur that do have that New York, go, go, go mentality, or let's get the job done. And I think I'm starting to learn and understand and be appreciative now that we're here on this land. We have about an acre here. We've got chickens now. We've got our own well, and we've got a marsh that's never going to be developed on one side of the property. And speaking of work, my father in law was just here, he's a hand, you know, he's always got to be working. So we built a deck, an extension to the deck and it was like four days of like you said, like toiling in the sun and really appreciate that cool beverage at the end of the day. But you don't have an appreciation for those, that lifestyle until you, you get to experience it and you realize it is important to get out and get your feet on the ground, you know, and get barefoot on the ground and be in touch with nature. So I'm empathetic for the people that are in, you know, those boxes in the city, you know, because it's needed and I'm reminded of it all the time, just how disconnected we are from nature. And I was just listening to a podcast about the importance of getting up with the sun rising because of the difference in the UV rays that are there and they're special, the quality of them and try to, you know, wake up with the sun and you hear these things, you know, and think about farmers lifestyle like that's, they don't know any different. That's the way it is. But we don't have, when you, you've never had it and you've experienced it, it is life changing in a way that you really sometimes have. I have trouble putting words to.

Hunter Toran 00:18:10:

Yeah. You know, I often like to say that the first way that the system tricks us is with tempo and time, turning time into evaluation of materialism rather than as the tapestry with which we witness the day. And so, yeah, where are those nodes of natural rhythm? Right. People always say I'm out of balance. And it's like, well, sure, but you're most likely more out of rhythm than anything else. And so how do we get back to these rhythms that set the body up into its natural expansion and contractions of awareness and doing so? Yeah, it's very important, you know, to note those cycles, notice what happens, how do we change when we begin to adhere to those cycles. And yeah, you know, one of the biggest favors we can do is to not look at our phone until we have received the early morning light because of the way it affects the neurology so much differently. The blue light, it's like wake up, whereas the sun is like, you know, I like I have this reddish orange light behind me. But like people talk about red light therapy, but that's what you're receiving. You Know, from the rising sun and also just being the witness of transitions. And this is, you know, when I'm mentoring people who want to be in, in men's work or human transformational work. So much of the work is about attunement to threshold. You're meeting people at a place where they're trying to come across a threshold of change. And so, you know, you asked about mentors. Well, the dawn and the dusk are very good mentors for crossing a threshold. Right. And it might seem philosophical and poetical in nature, which it is, but it's also a reality that we attune to what's needed in a human growth, you know, container. We're well served by the speed with which the day comes and passes. We're well served in noticing how the light comes to be and mimicking that pace, you know, not rush the process, but allow it to unfold in its own time, you know, and solar time. Yeah, very important stuff.

Harry Duran 00:20:24:

What was the initial draw to somatic work? You know, and I don't know if it was as known or as popular back then, but like, what was the pull to start working with the body? And how did you feel called to that?

Hunter Toran 00:20:38:

Yeah. And you know, being a laborer, you know, I would say maybe chronic pain called me to it. You know, I had some injuries over the time and I had, you know, I'd studied yoga in my 20s and some qigong and I always loved to dance and I always loved to move, hike. I was an athlete, you know, a student athlete, and always loved to move with intensity and, and with softness. And so for me, I was just talking about it with someone. You know, it was 2009. We had. The economy had just collapsed and I had lost a business home at that time. I had a landscape design and installation business at the time. And I was looking, I was like, well, I was not feeling satisfied. I wanted to work more with people and to serve, you know, to serve people. And so first I served myself, got myself out of chronic pain and then, you know, I went to a little known mystery school called the Spatial Dynamics Institute. It was just fascinating how the human experience is mapped by the body and repeated by the body. How the subconscious plays out through the chapters that are written in the reflexive motions and how the consciousness can be refined and mediated through movement both subtle and grand. And so, yeah, it's been a, you know, a continuously learning, you know, about it, continuously practicing and ultimately, again, the motivation is to increase the awareness.

Harry Duran 00:22:11:

Yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:22:11:

You know, and sometimes we have to get out of pain first to do that, because pain draws attention to itself wherever it is, so can we remediate it? And soul pain is the same way. You know, when someone is locked in a habitual pattern of thinking and doing, there's always movement that is playing out within that. For example, I had a client who had been rear ended like seven or eight times, and it's like, well, what is this about? And, you know, so they were constantly hunched over, their whole backspace just like collapsed and wrapped around them like a blanket. Like, when is it coming next?

Harry Duran 00:22:48:

Yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:22:49:

You know, but it turned out that when they were young, their father was a violent man, and he would often slap them in the back of the head.

Harry Duran 00:22:58:

Wow.

Hunter Toran 00:22:59:

And so they had already brought everything forward. And so there was like a vacuum of space. And oftentimes trauma works that way, where a gesture is created that the other puzzle piece is looking for it to fill in that space. Right. That's why so many abusive patterns and relationships. They're very repetitious.

Harry Duran 00:23:19:

Yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:23:20:

So, you know, getting that person to once be upright and then to also expand their awareness behind them was huge work. There were a lot of tears along the way. We moved through all that had occurred by the relationship with the father slapping them in the back of the head.

Harry Duran 00:23:38:

Wow.

Hunter Toran 00:23:38:

You know, so all that's alive in the movement, particularly if we're imprinted through violence and fear at young age.

Harry Duran 00:23:49:

Yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:23:50:

You know, there was an interesting study about scoliosis, and it's the highest rate of. People with scoliosis tend to be shy women. Okay, why? What about shy is that they're kind of pulled out of the world? They've got like one foot in the world. Right. Because the world's too much, they pull away and then the spine starts to form to that curve. Whereas to teach. So to teach them to be present and to look at the world head on, the spine can then begin to shift. The body can be trained. Trained. So, yeah, it's always fascinating to me. And, you know, learning to read it is a major part of attunement for me when doing group work. You know, the bodies are telling me the stories before the mouth's open.

Harry Duran 00:24:35:

Yeah. We did a couple of exercises. I think there's one he took us through that was the sins of the father or the weight of the father, where we were, you know, carry.

Hunter Toran 00:24:43:

We had our burdens of the father.

Harry Duran 00:24:45:

That was pretty. I mean, I would. Lots of tears, but the energy that was being moved and I think to your point, that I was holding inside it Was like, you know, they talk. The body knows the score and all this sort of stuff. But you don't know. It's like the body has the memory. And you're bringing up out the memory. And it's being, like, reflected now in physical form. I thought that was a very powerful experience.

Hunter Toran 00:25:08:

Yeah. Yeah. The body keeps a score. You know, as a monument, work was important. But I. I also think that it's still stuck in materialism a little bit. Because the body itself keeps the story. Right.

Harry Duran 00:25:20:

Okay.

Hunter Toran 00:25:21:

It holds a story. Even the brain. You know, all this, like, comparison of the brain to a computer is very inaccurate. You know, there's no hard drive in the head. They keep looking for the memories there. They're not going to find them. Because they're in the soft tissues. And they're actually in the space around us. And once the quantum realities start to catch up with metaphysics. A little bit more as a lived experience. They'll realize that where the memories are. Yeah. So that those stories are continuously unfolding through the language of motion. And, you know, just to let the people know. The burdens of the Father. Is a ceremony that we do with the men. Where the men are on their knees across from each other. And their arms are outstretched with their thumbs up. And they hold them there for much longer than they want to. But while living into this. Right. It's called the burdens of the Father. Because, like the story I told where someone's being slapped from behind. They then carry this burden. Because you better believe there's something that informed that man to do things that way. And so we're now carrying this story, which is a burden. It became our burden, but it was his burden before us and how it was passed along. So to put ourselves and say, I will carry this burden for you, dad. I'll carry. And I'll recognize that you have been in. In carrying this thing that I couldn't see. And it brought you to do things that were, you know, perhaps barbarous. But let me carry it for a moment. Let me step into that empathy with you. And then see where I'm carrying that and what I can then let go. Because right after when we finally. When the arms feel like they're going to explode. We've been there five, six, ten minutes, you know. Then it's collapse and fall into the mother's arms. Right. Fall to the earth. Fall, fall, fall, fall, fall. Let go of the burden. Let go of the burden. So it's important. Yeah. To find those intensities. Particularly for men. You Know, to relate the body to the burden.

Harry Duran 00:27:16:

Yeah, I'm getting chills just as you were going through it. Like I was reliving that experience. It's wild because it's like that memory of that exercise is. Still stays with me. And all you have to do is just bring up that what we're remembering that we're carrying and supporting and that burden. And you think about it just. Because who knows how far back it goes? You know, could be my grandfather. My grandfather was an alcoholic. You know, he fell off a bus and cracked his skull and died. Just. And I recently met this local shaman who said, she intuited. She's like, you need to do work with. With your grandfather energy. See, there's something there that is being called in. And I remember like, you know, that burdens of the father that we did. So I think I'm gonna have to dig in a little bit more and see what that story is, because I think there's more there to unpack.

Hunter Toran 00:28:03:

Beautiful.

Harry Duran 00:28:04:

So when I was looking into Sacred sun, which is the, you know, the event and the organization that were reconnected, what I remember most was always done such a good job with the socials. And I was looking at them and I'm. I felt very uncomfortable looking at the events and the things that were happening there. And I'm like, you know, you see people, guys boxing and like doing all sorts of things. I'm like. And I. And then I think at one point I realized, oh, if I'm feeling uncomfortable, it probably means that I should be going. That was like the sign, the aha. Like, oh, I get it. Like, I'm supposed to go because it's uncomfortable and didn't know what to expect. And it was a transformation. I tell my partner and tell a lot of people. That first event was transformational for me because it was just three days, you know, three, three, four days together with other men, which most men in this world don't get to experience in a safe, sacred space where we continuously found our edge. And that was a question, you know, you asked, and a lot of the leaders asked. They're like, where's your edge? Let's find your edge. And whether that's doing a two minute boxing session with another man. Most men probably have never done had a confrontational experience like that in their life. And I remember the energy that was going through my body in that moment than me and Stefan, who were. I volunteered first. I said, I'm going first because I'm freaked out. Like, I want to get this over with. So what drew you? You know, I know you had been doing some work with men previously, but talk a little bit about the experience of being introduced to the Sacred Sons group and how, you know, you came into their world and started working with them.

Hunter Toran 00:29:38:

Yeah, so I just moved to Seattle. I'd been working on the road quite a bit, and then. And so I was like, kind of in Seattle, not in Seattle. And then I finally land in Seattle and, you know, the COVID thing happens. And, yeah, I'm trying to kind of navigate starting a new business that requires being close to people and touching them in the city. I had no friends. I really had nothing going on and was in a dark place. And, you know, I saw the sacred sun stuff come up. And at first I'm like, ah, man, these. Look at these guys, like, you know, with their, you know, I thought they all had messiah complexes. Perhaps some of them did. And. But, you know, I'm like, well, I probably had the same complex at some point and decided that I just wanted to listen to young men, you know, and taking, you know, a lesson from indigenous women. Wisdom that the young people will come. You know, wisdom shall come out of the mouths of babes and succulents, to use the Bible. So, yeah, I was in a kind of a darker period of my life and wondering where to go with everything. And then, you know, went to Maui and had a transformational experience and, you know, was invited into leadership pretty quickly thereafter. And, you know, it was funny to be a leader, but also somewhat removed and to watch the internal dynamics grinding. I often say, like. Like working for the Sacred Sons was like living inside of the consciousness of these four men, basically. And, like, you know, whatever they were at, where they were at, what they needed, became the new thing. So, like, we didn't box at all at first, and then, like, the second time, they're like, we're in a box and wrestle. And I was kind of like, really? Because I come from a much more gentle approach to. To human development. And at first I was kind of like, this isn't for me. You know, and I did a little. You know, I grew up. I know what it's like to be punched in the face into, like, you know, I. I grew up in that way, particularly in high school. It was a rough and tumble time. And then I saw that it was a really powerful tool, you know, and so, you know, and literally, men are so stubborn sometimes they need to be punched in the face in order to feel something that's true or, you know, A lot of time. You know, for me, what I thought was great was they would violate an agreement.

Harry Duran 00:31:59:

Yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:32:00:

And then it's like, okay, man, like you cannot keep this agreement. Where else is that happening? And so a really powerful door opener to those kind of things. Facing a fear, always a great idea, you know, and feeling, you know, competent in the body. It's, you know, and then. But then there were places where I began to reject it entirely, which was Saturday nights. The big Saturday night, you know, at Convergences.

Harry Duran 00:32:27:

Oh, yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:32:28:

And even in EMX's guys would do these big fight nights. And it would. To me, it was a totally different energy. And I actually banished it from my emexs and was no longer going to be sending teams to that because I felt it was a little too much bread and circus, personally, for me. And to me, Saturday night is about prayer, celebration, and, you know, song culture. There is a particular quality to Saturdays that I think is personally think it's violated by fight night. So finding that balance and being the one kind of pushing and pulling from a place of kind of power. And, you know, eventually, you know, I did leave the Sacred Sons because I felt they were getting a little too orthodox in some of their ideas. There was a little too much of a holding, and I needed more flexibility within it. But, you know, a lot of gratitude to them. They really fired a shot that was heard around the world. Kind of the second wave of the men's work behind the Mankind Project.

Harry Duran 00:33:24:

Yeah, yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:33:24:

But then again, a lot of the orthodoxies came from the Mankind Project, which I believe is a little bit of a limited view of masculinity. Honestly, the four major archetypes focused on so much king, lover, warrior and magician. And it's really important, you know, but we are much more nuanced than that. And there are many more archetypes to explore and to supplicate to in order to understand oneself. And particularly the King Energy is the one where I find in the new modern men's movement goes askew of what's needed. To be honest, it's like, how many kings do you need in a room? It's like, we want to be sovereign, in control of this kingdom of self, take care of business around ourselves, protect our people. Yeah, but at what point do we lay that down?

Harry Duran 00:34:11:

Yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:34:12:

And to me, that's when we start to come into the indigenous consciousness is we. You know, I often say, you know, people be like, what do you think? Is this guy ready for leadership? I'll be like, well, is the hero dead at his feet yet.

Harry Duran 00:34:27:

Wow.

Hunter Toran 00:34:27:

You know, because then he's ready to serve, you know, because for me, like, you know, the masculine hero's journey, too, is limited because at some point, the hero looks around and says, I'm alone.

Harry Duran 00:34:41:

Yeah, right. Yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:34:43:

And the hero is always having to push forward. And so who is it? At what point do we put that down and begin to walk this path towards elderhood and nurturance or life tending? You know, all these things are important at different stages of life. You know, I just think it's, you know, I see a lot of men my age who are resisting aging by staying in this king warrior energy all the time. And I'm like, well, you know, brother, maybe it's time to soften because there's a grandmother inside you too, you know? And then, of course, the orphan. We always talk about putting the orphan on the throne. The one who is seeking fostering, the one who is hungry, the one who is thirsty, the one who is alone. And that those aren't something to overcome, but qualities to approach life with where we're at, which is we don't have a culture of initiation, you know, so, like, me and Kale were always trying to innovate, but that innovation is an intellectual project. You know, it's a process of prayer, praise, gratitude, and grief and a way of asking for help. The fostering how, you know, it's like you might have done brother death with us. It's like, you know, we gotta approach death. We need it to be mythopoetic. We need it to be, you know, touch the soul. It needs to be lived as a ceremony. So to me, those things come when the king has kind of been dethroned. Yeah, control is not what's needed anymore. But the hungry one comes and sits on the throne. The orphan comes seeking fostering, seeking the inspiration in the fostering. So it's, you know, humans are nuanced, and for some guys, it's, you know, it is. It's like men in their twenties need the king, the warrior, the magician, the lover to find their balance and come online. It's very important. But, yeah, what else? It's not the end there. Yeah, I don't remember what your question was, but that was some ideas or just dancing.

Harry Duran 00:36:42:

What was it like to see these probably thousands of men come through? I just remember a couple from our circles. Like, one guy came in a little bit late, and he was disconnected for a while. I forgot his name. But we came to find out later that he had been contemplating or he had tried suicide. A couple times. And just it was fascinating to see over the course of the three days how he softened up and he was just more engaged with the group after. And I mean, you must have so many stories like this in your work. And it almost speaks to how much this is needed is. I almost didn't understand how much I needed it until I experienced it. And it doesn't end because obviously you ride the wave and you're at the peak and you come back and, you know, my girlfriend's in tears and because she's like, this is a new man. And then it lasts for a certain period of time and you still gotta. You gotta come back and you gotta kind of revisit it and, you know, continue doing the work. But I just wonder what that experience was like for you to, you know, be there for the transition and to see, you know, for some men, you know, see this awakeness come alive in their eyes and in their bodies.

Hunter Toran 00:37:44:

Yeah, you know, it was beautiful, you know, very potent. And for me too, it was eye opening in terms of just the amount of suffering, you know, of everyday men. Yeah, you know, it was profound for me. It was also very challenging. Like, you know, I would fall in love with these men and then they'd be gone. And this is one of the places where I felt that the Sacred Sons wasn't supporting beyond the cathartic at that time. Yeah, the integration thing was not in place like it had been. We had something called the brothership at first, which was really good. And then they tried a app and it like crashed, failed, never came back. I believe they have something like a circle site or something now. So for me, it was this combination of exhilaration, of purpose, of continuous challenge, you know, because men are tough. And it required so much of me, which I love, to be able to be constantly in attuning and of course, very moving, you know, how much, you know, how many good tears were shed, you know.

Harry Duran 00:38:46:

Yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:38:47:

And I know we, you know, lives shifted, you know. For sure.

Harry Duran 00:38:52:

Yeah, for sure.

Hunter Toran 00:38:53:

And it also made me look at what's sustainable for myself, but also what's sustainable within the cathartic model model. And what is the relationship to integration and the cathartic. And humans, you know, particularly men, need this kind of intense cathartic thing. Like I said, some, you know, some guys got to get punched in the face in order to feel, you know, so it was a tremendous learning experience and it's been great, you know, doing things a slightly different style. Now for me, I'm focusing more on the local community and building the long term relationships that support the cathartic releases. Because there was a part of me too, that was carrying too much with, you know, taking things on. We had our sweat lodges and our ways, you know, of dealing with each other, but we also pushed very, very hard. And so, you know, I think that we're all learning continuously learning and trying to do better. So the hope, and for anyone out there that's doing human development containers that have cathartic aspects to them have your integration in place first. That is your responsibility to do that. And it's not easy and it's not always glorious and sometimes it's exhausting, but that is really where the proof and the pudding, so they say, is in the integration.

Harry Duran 00:40:11:

Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. So let's talk about the podcast. When did that come online for you? And I imagine you were a fan of them, but how do you move from a listener to, hey, maybe I can do this?

Hunter Toran 00:40:25:

Well, I mean, it really started with the quality of conversations that I was having on the phone. I'm old school. Like, I still, like every Saturday, you know, you usually my second cup of tea or second cup of coffee, whatever happens to be that day, I cold call someone, you know, and a lot of time those conversations are incredible. Me and Kale would have, you know, these three hour conversations on the phone and we'd be like, why didn't we record that?

Harry Duran 00:40:49:

You know?

Hunter Toran 00:40:50:

You know, I had some resistance, you know, and it's still like, I've never liked unsolicited advice and I've never really been a big one to give it either, you know, and so the whole like, Instagram thing, the constant human development tips, all the quotes and the I've got it figured out, it really still kind of bugs me to a certain degree.

Harry Duran 00:41:10:

Yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:41:10:

But then it's like, no, I need to honor and value the wisdom that I have gathered. And, you know, I did an online container. Stephen Jenkinson and Kimberly Johnson. Is it Kimberly Ann Johnson? I hope I'm getting that right. They did something on elderhood. And, you know, the first chapter is like, hey, folks, elders are gone. Like just about. And this is where we're at in society. And there was this case and I realized myself being 51, it's like, oh, that's where I'm going. And, you know, I had all this time to lament the adolescent rites of passages that were missing, you know, and like, I had to learn by fire, having kids and these kind of things, doing it all without initiation. So to speak of. And it's like, wait a minute, we need to look at, like I need to look at this one. So the platform, you know, it's in a way it is to query elderhood, but it's also a place where I can bring forward that which has served me, you know, and to begin to take that responsibility of teaching, of transmitting. Because that's one of the primary responsibilities of an elder. Right? Is to pass on.

Harry Duran 00:42:21:

Yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:42:22:

And so for me, you know, just like taking measure of what I've been up to for the past 50 years and being like, okay, there's some worth, there's some good value here and I can start having a platform to do it. And you know, so it's still a lot of conversations between me and Kali, you know, but it's also a place where experimenting with monologue, which is a place that I've really enjoyed and it's giving me like people are going to see in real time my learning process. Because so much of becoming an elder is about continuing to learn and to continue to go into new places, you know, to take the time to listen to the young people, but also to be like, yo, that's actually not it, guys. Like, let's consider this and to learn the language of invitation. Right? Because this disconnect, you know, if I went out in the city today and just started lecturing young people, we're not going to get anywhere. So how do we begin to build the conversation that is invitational to the younger generation? Say actually, hey, I want a mentor, I want to seek elderhood. And then also for men, I'm going to be releasing, I have an online circle space and we're going to do some more intensives on about becoming an elder. So it's going to be for men, 45 plus who want to be like, okay, I'm going to take on the fact that I am now in an uncle position, but I need to become an elder is something else. And it's not just about years, it's about something more. It's about cultivating something more than just a top down power structure, but creating a culture of self that people want to be around and also having the courage to be like, you know, to draw lines. Because elders show us what to do, but they also show us what not to do.

Harry Duran 00:44:07:

Yeah, right.

Hunter Toran 00:44:08:

And how do we communicate that? Some people got to learn on their own, you know, but the like archetype of the lecturous elder, right, that the kids are all rolling their eyes at, you know, because ultimately they're like would spare these young people the pain of the school of hard knocks that they've gone through, but it's not being transmitted in an invitational way. So the podcast New. The new podcast New Elder Wisdom, A Home of the Council of the Third Way, is really about finding what's missing and also giving me a platform to trans. Transmute some or transmit some wisdoms.

Harry Duran 00:44:46:

How would you define the third way?

Hunter Toran 00:44:49:

The third way is that which arises between two extremes. So I like to think of it in terms of human relationships. For me and Kale, we offer corporate leadership that's called the Council of the Third Way because we learned, working together, that we can't go back to the indigenous way, we can't keep forwarding with the Western mechanistic mind, but that actually something arises between those things that is fed from both streams and gives value to both streams of consciousness. And it's. Something is born. There's a cooperative spirit that's born out of the Third Way. You know, like even like utter destruction and fascism or utter collective and socialism would be these two extreme poles of destruction. But is there something that arises in between those things of personal sovereignty and collective responsibility that is more. And it. The Third Way speaks to what's emergent. You know, particularly men love to say, this is how it is. This is the structure, this is the form. This is how it's done. This is his tradition. And we always want to honor tradition, but tradition has also failed. We have to be real about that. Yeah, they don't exist any to a large degree, but maybe they were failing to bring us where we needed to go. And these new traditions that will be born will be a third way between the human being suspended between the cosmos and land. So the human being themselves, I see as a third way. We are spiritual born and earth formed. Right. So. And we have to be the bridge between these worlds in order for those things to work together so that the earth and the cosmos can work together through the human being. And it is emergent. It's ever changing. It's mercilessly loving and free.

Harry Duran 00:46:50:

So that's beautifully said. Thank you. How have you grown or what have you seen come alive for you in this role as a podcast host? You know, because you have to hold space. You have to sort of direct the energy of the conversation. And I think that's why I keep doing the show, because it keeps me on my toes and it keeps me active and more curious and asking better questions. And I'm curious in the time and the episodes that you've done what you've seen come alive for you.

Hunter Toran 00:47:18:

You know, the more deeply heart connected I can get with the person, the more what is needed to come forward does. You know, I generally don't write questions, but just one word themes on my notebook, you know, and then I just, I try and practice good listening like you're doing today. You know, like how this conversation is evolving, that is being in service to the third way. There's what I want to know about the person, there's what the person wants to transmit, and then there's what arises in the actual, you know, commitment to listening and emerge, having the conversation emerge over time. So it's been helping me to refine that to a large degree. Yeah, it's been great.

Harry Duran 00:48:01:

I remind students and clients in a podcast conversation, there's three people involved and this, which speaks to the third way, but it's, for me, it's the host, the guest and the listener. And it's singular because there's one person with their headphones on listening to our conversation, you know, when it's published. And I'm always conscious of that because I'm like, we're bringing them on. And I always want it to feel like we're in the pub, you and I have a conversation, and someone's just kind of peeking in saying, hey, mind if I join you and just listen in, just pull up a chair and just join in the conversation. So I'm always like, I feel like I'm a steward of that energy, you know, and bringing that conversation forward, but I'm keeping an eye on the time and I want to be conscious and just grateful of the time we've spent together. Got a couple of questions before we wrap up, but I just want to, like, also publicly thank you for the time I've got to spend with you. I was lucky enough to have you as the leader for my circle when we did the mx. And then when I showed up at Convergence and they start handing out the bandanas, they're like, you got green. And I'm like, what's that? That's Hawthorne Clan. I'm like, who's that? I'm like, that's Hunter. I'm like, you know, part of you is that like, oh, I want to work with someone else. And I'm like, well, I think I'm called to work with Hunter again. So we got to spend another three magical three or four days together. And they've all been transformational experiences. And I, you know, I really, you know, respect and honor the work that you do, and the transmissions you've brought forward. So I just want to, you know, publicly acknowledge that and thank you for the time we've got to spend together.

Hunter Toran 00:49:21:

I appreciate that, man. And you're welcome. And I was so glad you did choose to be with because what a time that was. Right.

Harry Duran 00:49:28:

You know, both groups were so powerful.

Hunter Toran 00:49:31:

You know, we're in LA and you know, those initial attacks in Israel go down and.

Harry Duran 00:49:37:

That's right.

Hunter Toran 00:49:38:

And we just happen to have a Palestinian and ex IDF soldier in our world.

Harry Duran 00:49:43:

It was so wild.

Hunter Toran 00:49:44:

Right. So we, we really, you know, had an opportunity to live into that in a bunch of different ways and, you know, definitely challenged me beyond what I thought I was capable of holding. I found that I was capable of holding. And there's, you know, still a lot to learn and move with. That was a very, very potent container.

Harry Duran 00:50:04:

Wow. Yeah, Very good. Yeah. And kudos to you for holding that space that couldn't have been. I'm sure that's not what you were expecting and just. But you were called to that, you know, spirit called you to be that person, you know, so that's what happened.

Hunter Toran 00:50:16:

Right. And so what do we do? We moved into burdens of the fathers. Right. Because that's exactly what it is over there. Everybody carrying the burdens of their fathers, you know, and transmitting it in a lesson progressive way.

Harry Duran 00:50:28:

So. Yeah. What's something you've changed your mind about recently?

Hunter Toran 00:50:32:

Something I've changed my mind about recently? That's a really good question. And I've changed my mind about influence and skill being equatable in and of themselves. I used to really equate influence to that. There must be a lot of skill involved here.

Harry Duran 00:50:58:

Yeah.

Hunter Toran 00:50:59:

And I've changed my mind about that. And you know, I've also changed my mind about aging, you know, and it. It was something that I've feared all along. You know, I remember like when I had a very coppery red beard, you know, and in the beginning I'd like, oh, that's one gray hair. Like, pull it, pull it out, pull it out. You know, like, oh, what are the wrinkles? The wrinkles, you know, like, it's like, oh. And now it's like I really. And savoring the age I'm at and have a beautiful curiosity about where it's going. And so I would say I've changed my mind that I don't want to get old and I want to get l more than old, you know, I like that. So, yeah, so that's something I've Changed my mind. That's a great question.

Harry Duran 00:51:46:

What's the most misunderstood thing about you?

Hunter Toran 00:51:49:

Oh, probably that I'm, you know, like tense and fiery all the time. You know, I think a lot of people look at me and, you know, I'm definitely, you know, receive a lot of projection. Yeah, I could probably make that easier on myself by getting a haircut, but then I don't want to. So. Yeah, I think people don't understand the capacity of gentle presence that I have cultivated and the amount of time that I put into cultivating who I am.

Harry Duran 00:52:22:

Well, I can vouch for your lightheartedness because we did get to spend some time dancing after the mx. You know, I think I forgot Pirongi, I think had come through and oh yeah, we all went there, we jammed out and I got to see your dance moves and I can definitely vouch for them. And as someone who grew up DJing, like, house music is my first passion.

Hunter Toran 00:52:42:

Oh.

Harry Duran 00:52:42:

Like, Yeah, I love DJing. And I've still got my vinyl here, I jam out. It's one of those things that really feeds my soul. And so I've always felt it's one of the best ways that I move energy dancing, like so it would be in the clubs and as I dj, like moving the energy of the crowd. And so it was just fun to see and just connect with you at that level as well, because there's something interesting about. You can tell a lot about a person and I think about in terms of how they dance and how they embrace music and you just, you can see just the free flowing nature and the wildness that's in your heart come through, which I loved to see. So it was nice to share that space with you as well.

Hunter Toran 00:53:16:

Yeah, let's do that again.

Harry Duran 00:53:18:

Yeah, for sure.

Hunter Toran 00:53:19:

That was really fun. I really danced my ass off that night. That was a great night.

Harry Duran 00:53:24:

That was a good night. Well, I mean, I feel like we could talk for several hours and I just want to maybe tee that up for a future conversation. But I just wanted to just love the opportunity that I have, that by virtue of you having a podcast, we can, I can invite you on and we can have this conversation. But it was really just an excuse for me to just spend more time with you. And I always say, like, if you're podcasting and you look at the calendar and you're not excited about an upcoming interview, then you're probably not doing the right show. Because, you know, I try to have people on here and have conversations that make me excited because by virtue of the hype extension, then the listener will feel that as well. So yeah, I just want to thank you for the time and sharing your Elder Wisdom with this community and continuing to do so. I think you're doing very important work and I'm sure there'll be some follow ups because there's some stuff that I'm interested in. But thanks again for your time. The podcast is the new Elder Wisdom. We'll be sure to have all those links in the show notes. But thank you and I appreciate you brother there.

Hunter Toran 00:54:19:

Yeah, thanks so much. I appreciate you having me on. I look forward to more.

Harry Duran 00:54:22:

Harry Sounds good.