379: From Madagascar to Podcasting: Jullian Androkae’s Global Journey

Jullian Androkae 00:00:00:

If you just put out a podcast into the world, it's not much is going to happen with it, no matter how good it is. I think how good it is could definitely build a lot of natural engagement, but if you can be found, you know, it just isn't going to work. And I think some people are really, really good at earned media and, you know, getting the podcast into newsletters. I think some people are really, really good at social media. Some people have really good email lists that they've built over time. But I think that without that ecosystem, a lot of the podcasts in this sort of era of podcasting really struggle, so.

Harry Duran 00:00:36:

Julian Andrekai, podcast creative strategist, thank you so much for joining me on Podcast Junkies.

Jullian Androkae 00:00:41:

Yeah. Hey, Harry. So nice to be here.

Harry Duran 00:00:44:

Yeah. We've been trying to get this going for several, probably months now.

Jullian Androkae 00:00:48:

Yeah.

Harry Duran 00:00:49:

And I think we were initially connected through Andrea Koskai recently published her episode. So I appreciate you being patient. I know a lot of times when it comes to podcasting and scheduling and travels and overlapping calendars, things get a little hectic.

Jullian Androkae 00:01:05:

I completely get it. I think this is a business of understanding and just patience.

Harry Duran 00:01:10:

Yes. Where's home for you?

Jullian Androkae 00:01:13:

So, okay, that's a complicated question because just as it was even that I imagined, I'm originally from Madagascar. I'm from Madagascar, grew up there.

Harry Duran 00:01:21:

Okay.

Jullian Androkae 00:01:21:

My family's there, and that's a place I call home. And I'd love to just be able to go back as a lot more often than I am, but it is always great. And right now I'm in Bucharest, Romania, because, as you know, Andrea Koskai is from here in Bucharest, and we decided to move here a couple years ago. It's been a really good. It's been a very interesting switch because I think when we were living in the U.S. so I used to live in the U.S. and in the U.S. we were doing, I would say, not even a fifth of the traveling that we do here, where. Yeah, it just feels like the continental US Was as accessible as continental Europe, you know? Yeah. Yeah.

Harry Duran 00:02:09:

What was it like growing up in Madagascar?

Jullian Androkae 00:02:11:

I mean, different and interesting. I think that one of the main things is we are Francophones, so we have our own culture, we've got our own music, our own taste for things, etc. A lifestyle and whatnot. But in terms of influence, we are influenced more so by the French. And so when it comes to music, when it comes to movies, even comedy, you know, all of those things are just so French. And so there was a Transition for me, going from that style of things to the English speaking world. And it did create some kind of disconnect between, you know, how I make jokes, how I talk, or the rest of my family, because none of them have adjusted to that. You know, why would they?

Harry Duran 00:02:55:

What was the biggest culture shock for you when you came to the United States?

Jullian Androkae 00:02:59:

It's hard to call them cultural shocks because you sort of expect them, like, and you're almost waiting because the consumption is so much there. You know, I was saying that, yeah, movies, we're watching them in French, but a lot of them are still Hollywood movies. And I think the one big one. Let me think. It's funny. I'd say that Americans are a lot more socially aware, but it's very unique. And it shows up in just how people have relationships and it just shows up in, you know, how people say hi to each other, how people go about their day and, like, stay side by side or whatnot. The discomfort as well, you know, about awkward situations or like awkwardness as a concept. Yeah, I think is also a very American and English centric thing. Like, I think that, yeah, growing up or like being back in that world, it's just the idea of awkwardness is not as strong, I would say. Yeah.

Harry Duran 00:04:11:

Did you experience awkwardness or did you see it and that's how you noticed? Yeah, sort of.

Jullian Androkae 00:04:16:

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think there's almost an expectation in my experience, from what I saw, there's almost an expectation that sometimes you'll meet somebody, like whenever you meet somebody new, that there's a hundred reasons that interaction could fail, you know, and you're sort of working uphill on, you know, how to make sure not to do it. And you can see it in people's reactions. And yeah, it's just so interesting. Like, if something happens that makes it awkward, I always expected that to be like its own thing, you know. Oh, that was awkward. So that was funny.

Harry Duran 00:04:53:

Right.

Jullian Androkae 00:04:54:

But it's almost like, okay, I don't know this person, I don't know what they like. And I think it also comes from the diversity. When you have so many people from different backgrounds, it really multiplies the occasions for that kind of thing happening. So, yeah, I think it's a bit of tug of war when it comes to whether that's a good thing or not. But, I mean, I love my time in the U.S. i'd say that Americans are very warm and, you know, even though I moved, I've really made it the point to be able to keep the connections that I have and to keep these friendships that I built and to keep on making more, actually. So it's very. I'd say, yeah. Europe feels cold as a. If you compare them next to each.

Harry Duran 00:05:38:

Other and there is no one us, obviously, because I grew up in New York and I grew up in the city and everything is go, go, go. And very aggressive personalities. And, you know, I. You don't tend to say hi to people in the streets. Just everyone's doing their own thing, in a bubble. And then I moved to LA for four years. Sort of like the same vibe, but a different kind of, like, coastal city vibe. And now I'm in Minnesota. And the Midwest, if you're not familiar with it, is, like, completely different. Like, you just experience because everyone's nice and they, you know, it takes 20 minutes to say goodbye to somebody because they call it the Minnesota goodbye.

Jullian Androkae 00:06:13:

Yeah, yeah. Which is so similar to what we have. I think this is something that the Midwest, the South have, like, these cultural signatures that we also have back in Madagascar, and you'll find all over the world that just don't exist. I think it might be like a bigger city thing, too, because I was up in Vermont for a while and they do also sort of carry that.

Harry Duran 00:06:34:

Yeah, it's very. And then how did you end up in Romania?

Jullian Androkae 00:06:37:

Yeah, as told you. So I moved here with Andrea. She's my wife. We're married. And, yeah, we basically wanted to. We had basically been, you know, during the pandemic, working remotely. Anyway.

Harry Duran 00:06:49:

Yeah.

Jullian Androkae 00:06:50:

And I'll tell you a bit more about that later. But from that, there was sort of a comfort that if we moved, we'd be able to just keep doing this. And also. Yeah, it's just a delight. The quality of life, I think, is arguably, in some ways, you know, a lot better. And just being close to family, I get to be on the same time zone as my parents and my siblings and, you know, that type of people. Because I used to have some, like, eight hours and it's just like.

Harry Duran 00:07:16:

Yeah, yeah.

Jullian Androkae 00:07:16:

Every time you get up, they're going to sleep and you just miss their lives.

Harry Duran 00:07:23:

Where did you and Dream Beat?

Jullian Androkae 00:07:24:

We met in China. We met in China.

Harry Duran 00:07:27:

Wow.

Jullian Androkae 00:07:27:

We met at the program in China. We had both gotten scholarships. We obviously didn't know anything about each other. She actually was there before me. And, yeah, it's funny, we always have this story where the first time we met, she's the only one who remembers, and she makes sure to, you know, tell everyone we meet. That's the case yeah, it's a very funny feeling to be like, oh, obviously I don't remember, but it was my first days in China, you know.

Harry Duran 00:07:52:

Sure, sure.

Jullian Androkae 00:07:53:

But met there. We stayed in China for two years. And I mean, I must say China still is my favorite country in the world, really, by. By pretty healthy margin, you know.

Harry Duran 00:08:07:

Wow.

Jullian Androkae 00:08:07:

And I think, why is that? I got to travel a lot more the past couple of years. Obviously in Madagascar, you're super isolated, this big island in the middle of the Indian Ocean. But yeah, I guess I got to maybe see. I'd say 15 countries at this point and growing, hopefully. There's just something about China has this cultural similarity to where I'm from, where people are super warm, people are very welcoming, and they're generally so welcoming to foreigners, especially pre pandemic. I think that things have tightened everywhere after. But yeah, it's just so they. Anyone that you admit would first be surprised that, oh, why are you visiting this part of China if you're not in Shanghai? And then to try and make sure that you have a good experience. Yeah, the culture is so deep. And I think that if it wasn't for this rivalry I think that the US and China have had, it would just be such a delight between the two countries because, yeah, there is just so much beauty there.

Harry Duran 00:09:13:

What were you studying? What was that program?

Jullian Androkae 00:09:14:

That was actually a baccalaureate program. I was still in high school. I did high school twice, which is just a funny aside on that. I finished high school in Madagascar before I started this program. Yeah, this program was basically the international baccalaureate at a school called UWC. They have like 20 schools in the world. It's just. Yeah, basically it's an UN style incubator where you get people from hundreds of countries to just live together for a couple of years and study.

Harry Duran 00:09:41:

Yeah, sounds like an amazing experience.

Jullian Androkae 00:09:44: I can definitely attest to mine being great. I heard people have like terrible stories after I left because of the pandemic.

Harry Duran 00:09:55:

Oh, yeah.

Jullian Androkae 00:09:56:

But I think, yeah, it has its ups and downs, I have to say. I think that there is a status quo element to it where you have deep expectations of how, you know, how relationship between people from different countries is supposed to be, how dialogue, negotiations, et cetera are supposed to be, and that you have to follow. And I think at the time we don't necessarily realize, but then when you look back, it's a different story.

Harry Duran 00:10:21:

I think it's so important. And, you know, just speaking from experience, I've been to several countries and I'm Latino myself, but, you know, there's this expanded worldview that most people don't have and especially a lot of Americans. And I think having this cross cultural experience, seeing how other people, how different cultures react to each other, I think it sort of gives you this perspective, this global world perspective that I think is important nowadays because we're so connected now digitally. Like we're having this conversation with you and I, you know, across the ocean. And it's so interesting that this wasn't a world that, you know, we were all connected what was happening like 20, 30 years ago. And so now that it is, we're meeting different cultures, we're seeing how different people were raised in different countries. And I think personally, that perspective is important. And so it's nice to like, you know, see how much of a broad experience you've had with different cultures.

Jullian Androkae 00:11:14:

Yeah, I mean, two things about that. One, like, it really shocks me how little Americans travel outside of the U.S. i mean, I know, I get it. There is so much to see within the us I haven't been to New Orleans, I haven't been to a lot of Midwest. You know, there's so much beauty. You know, I've been to like some of the big cities, but that's it. And so I completely get it. Also. Yeah, to what you were saying, I think there's so much to get and there's so much to get in the realm in different realms. Culture. I think music is a huge one. I think music, and this is something like from months ago, a couple months ago, almost when I wanted to talk to you was like, because I saw that you used to, in your long career complex career, also be a dj, right?

Harry Duran 00:11:57:

Yes.

Jullian Androkae 00:11:58:

And I was like, oh, that's so cool. Because I mean, I used to really love music production as well before I got into podcasting and it was sort of a ping pong thing. I went from music production as a passion and hobby to like film and video and now like ping pong being back to audio. But yeah, I think just Music Fields has always sort of felt borderless in terms of like what you can take inspiration from, what you can explore. I did see online that you've got a couple remixes still out.

Harry Duran 00:12:30:

Well, just for fun, you know, because we can do whatever we want on the show. That's my DJ equipment and my vinyl.

Jullian Androkae 00:12:36:

Oh, very nice.

Harry Duran 00:12:37:

I got the turntable set up already. So, you know, it's always there and it's always like some. It's like it's never far away from me and it's my passion. You Know, probably I would say it's my first passion because I started when I was 16, and I still do it, so I still have to. And I learned. I have to learn new technologies because I had to move from vinyl to digital and electric box and playing from USBs, because that's what DJs do now. So you have to kind of. It's so you have. It keeps you sharp. But, you know, it's actually. DJing was my introduction to podcasting, because I was going to. I was working on a mobile app for the DJ culture, and then I wanted to start a podcast to promote the mobile app back in, like, 2013. So it's all connected. And I think for me, it's one of those things that I've always loved, because when I'm DJing, and especially if I DJ out, it's this ability to manage the energy of a room by virtue of, like, what you play. And I'm sure maybe you've had that same experience as you're creating music, and soon you're like, you're going for a certain vibe and an energy. You know, when you do it right.

Jullian Androkae 00:13:41:

DJing is so hard. I think I've only gotten to do it a handful of times, so I did it in China the most, which was so fun.

Harry Duran 00:13:48:

Really?

Jullian Androkae 00:13:49:

Yeah, it was. And it's exactly what you're saying. You know, you have the energy of the room to manage, and there's sort of different stages about how it feels like, oh, this is the first hour of this party. Like, I've got to get people going, get people on the dance floor, and then it changes to, you know, maybe playing something different. And I had a long playlist because people were essentially submitting music from their country. I had to, like, spend time listening to it and try to, you know, how can I put all of this together and not disappoint too many people? It's hard. It's fun, but it's hard. I also. I think I mostly got lost into just, like, making music and, like, getting stems.

Harry Duran 00:14:30:

Oh, yeah.

Jullian Androkae 00:14:31:

From, like, different places and try to figure out how to make a sound work. It's funny, my first. My very first experience doing that was so. I had. This is like, maybe 2012. So basically, when you started podcasting, that's when I started. I started even doing, like, making music. Yeah, Basically. I had this copy of FL Studio that I had downloaded, obviously pirated in 2012, and. But I had nothing. It was. No, no, no. Actually, I did not even know how to. I didn't really know how to pirate that at the time. It was the trial version, and I think I played around with the trial version for a long time. But the reason why I'm telling you this is because of that stem's comment. The first stem I had, I was like, okay, I can use this piano. That's the basic one, but it sounds so bad, so let me grab one. So I think I grabbed the first note in Diamonds by Rihanna, and I just turned that into, like, its own sample. And I think I ended up remaking a David Guetta song by mistake. And I was just like, what the hell just happened? You know, because I went through the entire process. The song was done, and I was so happy about it, and I was like, wow, I'm a genius. You know, this is my first song. I'm a genius. And then I play it for people, and you're like, I've heard this before. Yeah.

Harry Duran 00:15:55:

Well, it's interesting. Like, sometimes they call them happy accidents. I've been in a session where I try something and it didn't work, and then I accidentally loop a piece of a stem or a song, and I'm like, oh, wait, I have a bass line that just appeared out of nowhere. You just have to go with it, you know? And it's interesting because in production, like, that's never done, because you'll never feel like, yeah, this production is complete. I can tie a bow around it. You just have to decide at some point. And we could probably bring this back at some point to podcasting, but you have to agree that, like, it's done for now, you know, and you have to be okay with that.

Jullian Androkae 00:16:26:

Yeah. Yeah. I think it made it especially hard as you're learning, because that was a lot of my time. I think I felt very confident in my skills as production and DJing only the last couple years before I just, you know, stopped and switched to something else. As you're learning, it's so hard because you're like, okay, my ear can hear that this isn't perfect. My skills are not there yet. And there you have that gap, right, of, like, I know something's wrong. I have no idea how to fix it. But you just have to get on with it, you know, go on to the next challenge. It doesn't matter how many times you. You, like, keep on beating at this horse. It's not going to count.

Harry Duran 00:17:02:

Yeah, well, it's interesting because, you know, starting to meld in what's happening now with podcasting and some of these tools, these AI tools. I Don't know. If you've been playing around with the script and the vibe coding and the vibe editing that they're doing now, it's still a little janky. It's still beta for sure, because I've asked it to do basic things like put this background there, and it's just like. It takes like 20 minutes, and it's so different. Something that would probably take me a minute, but I was working out this morning and I was like, oh, wait, what if, like, some of these audio production tools like Ableton, they let you start doing vibe production? Like, I know in my mind. Yeah, I am know in my mind, like, I've been in a party and I'm like, oh, my God. I have the baseline in my head and I have this loop, and I kind of like, I am like, I can make a track in my mind. And I think, hopefully, I think they could be seeing what's happening. Like, yeah, you know, these pro tools, the Ableton, it's a. If they watch what's happening on the AI and the vibe coding side and the vibe, you know, editing, it could be a point where you could just describe what you want. I want a baseline, and I want some distance to come in right now. And so hopefully that's coming soon.

Jullian Androkae 00:18:08:

Okay, you got me started with that. So where do I even start? That's such a good topic. I'll bring it back to podcasting and it'll make sense.

Harry Duran 00:18:16:

Yeah, of course.

Jullian Androkae 00:18:16:

First of all, the world of, like, music and production and DJing is so rich because of VSTs, I feel. And just, you know, this plugins, like, everyone has a plugin. Every big guarantee, the plugin, small companies have them and they can do so much, you know, like the base program, like you just said, Pro tools doesn't need to build something like that because there's probably a plugin out there that does that, right? And of course, it's on them to maybe harmonize everything and do something that works out of the box, which would help a lot, but it's just like getting hit in the face by so many plugins over the years just blew my mind. And for example, I've seen one. I haven't played around with it, but I've seen one where basically, since I'd give it a year and a half or two, they were probably in development before that. But it's a vibe production app where you can hum and do, like, mouth sounds for all of your music production, and then either it will match it with instruments or it will, like, Actually create the synth for you and like put it all together. I don't know if you've seen that.

Harry Duran 00:19:24:

I've seen it. I've heard of it and I've seen people, like. I think I've probably seen Instagram ads for people, like, humming the song. Does it do, like multiple tracks or can you just kind of try to. Is it trying to do one song in one take or something?

Jullian Androkae 00:19:36:

I think it does it by track. And like, what I thought that was really cool is that it's not just because I think the. A few years ago there was like a one that was like a MIDI thing where you could hum it and then it would see where the loudest parts are and then you would, like put a note there. Right. But that's like the old style of doing it. This new one is like, if you make a noise that's like, I don't want to make noises on the podcast. I don't know if it's where it's going to end up, but it's like if you make a horn like noise with your mouth, then it will automatically know to generate with AI like, trumpet. That makes that noise. Right. Wild and so, so wild. Yeah. It's not just putting up notes, it's actually generating the sound for you, which is. I was just like, damn, they are making. And it was like a small company doing it. I'm gonna have to look it up. Yeah. To bring that. Yes.

Harry Duran 00:20:24:

Yeah. Bring it back to podcasting.

Jullian Androkae 00:20:26: Yeah, to bring that up to podcasting. I really admire what so Descript, I think, really has put themselves in a really good position because they're like a very new, still, you know, five to seven years old company, very young, and they have this infrastructure that can move fast. You know, even though they've built it out and they've built it like web first, et cetera, et cetera. So I can really see, like, how much they're able to move through these new changes. And they're just getting it out there like, oh, here's a product that is not ready at all. But, like, go and test it out and we'll use the data to. To train it and get better, which a lot of the other companies just cannot do with their customers. And I've played with it, as you said as well, and yeah, it's pretty dumb. I would say, you know, it's not very capable at the moment. And I think there's a real challenge because most podcasts are pretty long. I think that to me, that's been one of the hardest things. Like, one of the first things I had to sort of start switching to doing is when I asked to do something, to only do it for a portion of the episode. And then so I'll be like, yeah, do. Only do it. If it's like a one hour episode, I'll be like, only do it for the first 20 minutes. And then once it's done and it's like, okay, it did a decent job, then move on to the next and it sort of.

Harry Duran 00:21:44:

How's that working?

Jullian Androkae 00:21:45:

It's working pretty well. You know, I think it's working better than if you just try it out the gate. And also having to keep like refreshing the chat. Like, I don't trust to do two things in a row. It's like, do this one thing.

Harry Duran 00:21:59:

I made the mistake.

Jullian Androkae 00:22:00:

Yeah, do this one thing. Bye. Bye. And then just start over with something fresh. Yeah. What else have you been using?

Harry Duran 00:22:08:

Well, I'm in a bit of a vibe coding rabbit hole right now because. Not related to podcasting. Well, kind of related to podcasting. So I'm working on a podcast directory. It's been five years and I started it in like airtable and I went to webflow and then I had someone help me move it to Bubble. And then I was paying a developer on Fiverr to maintain it. It's been like a four or five year journey. And then I realized it's not my vision, it's not what I want. And then I started to see some of these vibe coding tools like Bolt and Replit and they could very quickly get you a website, but the coding is crap. It's like spaghetti code. It's not even good. So then I had to go down and figure out who's the best for coding. And it's Claude and then it's Claude code, which sits in the terminal. And I had to get it to the terminal. And now I'm in a. So basically now I'm trying to get it finished. The next version for podcast movement, which is in a week. I gotta get it finished. I'm close because I wanted to like debut the new version, but it's been interesting because it's like speaking to someone like a. Who's very int. It's almost like autistic, like programmer. Like, they know what to do, but they don't understand the concept of like the big picture of all the moving parts. They're like, oh. And they're very agreeable and sycophantic, like, oh, of course. Julian, I'm so sorry about that I'll fix that right away. Yeah, stop talking like this. Just do the work. So when it comes to Descript, it's like I have to be conscious in this. I'm glad I'm playing with all these AI tools because I understand the limitations of what you can and can't do. But I think it is important to test because I feel like that's where we're moving towards all these things happening. And I like when ChatGPT first hit the scene, like, you know, a couple years ago, I said the biggest skill humans are going to have to learn is how to talk to robots.

Jullian Androkae 00:23:45:

Yeah, yeah.

Harry Duran 00:23:46:

And I think that's what we're seeing. And whether the robot is like an AI tool or design tool or these interfaces are just going to, we're seeing rough, rough cuts right now and people are playing with these rough cuts and they're very like, ah, like they're throwing it out. Like that's it's not going to work. Our podcasters, like, no, I tried it didn't work. Like you have to keep trying it because it's just going to keep getting better, you know, And I think, I know you like playing with some automation as tool as well. We can get into some of that, what your workflow looks like. But like, know, I think it's important to be continuously pushing the boundaries of what you can do because it's going to give you a leg up in terms of skill sets and how much you can handle from a production perspective and how much faster you can work.

Jullian Androkae 00:24:26:

Yeah, it's. I completely agree with what you say. And like, recently one thing I've thought that's very similar that I, that just came, that came to my mind as I was playing around with these, is that actually two years ago ChatGPT comes out, writers were in shambles. You know, it's coming for their job. It ended up coming from all of our jobs. But at this point I'm also thinking that writers are actually the best prompt engineers and the best context engineers and the best people to be able to, you know, think about how these tools work and be able to give them the best instructions possible. And so I think, I mean, companies should be looking into hiring writers specifically for that. I'm aware that there's the irony of training your own replacement thing going on, and I don't know exactly what the solution there is, but I think that when it comes to AI, I agree with you. I think that we live in a world where the people who are using any of these tools for exploitation are going to do it as much as they can with AI. They might be funding it, they might be, you know, at any stage in it, but it doesn't look like it's something that's going away or that regulation is keeping up with. And there's actually a lot of things that are exciting about it. You know, one of the things I've been saying is that especially for podcasting, but this, I think is true for everything, is that AI should be used for your workflows and your. Anything that you can automate as opposed to for your creativity. I think one of the things that I'm happy about over the last year is, is that I've been able to be so much more creative with the people I make podcasts for. You know, I'm able to be more present. I'm able to just think about, okay, how can we treat this moving piece a little bit, as opposed to just, you know, sending a, like, full meeting agenda that I spend a bunch of time typing up or meeting notes or anything like that. Like, there's just a lot of things that are helpful with it, I think.

Harry Duran 00:26:26:

So let's. I would say segue, but we kind of like moving all over the map here. But talk to me about how, you know, you had this background in editing which led to video editing, and how did you start to enter the world of podcasting?

Jullian Androkae 00:26:38:

Yeah, definitely. I. So my entrance in the world of podcasting is just. Is a freelancing one, as it happens. I started freelancing in 2019, and I did, like, random stuff at the start. I started getting into editing things like courses for people, video editing, and then I got into doing an audiobook. Editing an audiobook for someone which was just like this very large project. And that one transitioned into a podcast, actually. And this is my longest running show.

Harry Duran 00:27:14:

Okay.

Jullian Androkae 00:27:14:

Yeah, I posted.

Harry Duran 00:27:15:

So the book. The audiobook translated into a podcast.

Jullian Androkae 00:27:17:

So the. No. So it's from the same person. The same person that released the book wanted to start a podcast. Her name is Betsy Barris. She's a teacher psycho coach. She basically. Yeah, for a living. She helps teachers, you know, get through the hard. The hardships of teaching. I'll be right back. So I was talking about Teaching for Emotions. So the name of the podcast is Teaching for Emotions. It's a great podcast and I've been working on it for, you know, the past almost five years now. And it's just.

Harry Duran 00:27:45:

Wow.

Jullian Androkae 00:27:45:

I started off just being the audio editor for it, just like I was on the. On the audiobook and so, yeah, I was just, you know, getting these tapes. I was cutting them, I was doing some light, you know, mixing on them, and then I would send it back as an episode. I did that for a while and then we stopped because, you know, the podcast wasn't growing. She was sending it out to her email list, but that was pretty much it. It was on her website. It was pretty much it. And I think this was last year actually, where she came. I mean, I think I approached her and she was like, actually, I was thinking, I've been thinking about doing the podcast again. And we restarted and we started season two. We did a bunch of things, like, we went to, like, our mutual friends at Tank Media for podcast therapy. And like, we just brainstormed a bunch of things. We did a rebrand. We did. We reworked all of the copy and yeah, and we got season two out, and the show definitely started growing a lot more than it did before. And last week, which is why this is so fresh, it won an award at Women who Podcast awards. So it won the best. Was it the best thought provoking podcast? I think it was. And it was just very nice, you know, and it also won an. I mean, it was nominated that earwarfy for, like, best teaching podcast, which was like, okay, that's. That's super nice.

Harry Duran 00:29:05:

Okay.

Jullian Androkae 00:29:06:

So just to see that kind of growth and sort of evolution in a podcast over a long time, especially when you don't have your own podcast like me, it was great. But yeah, in between, I did work at. So my career in podcasting really started to cement itself when I was hired at the YBCA in San Francisco.

Harry Duran 00:29:26:

Yeah.

Jullian Androkae 00:29:27:

Museum there. I was hired at as there. My official thing was, my official title was podcasting assistant, but it was essentially the sole podcaster in their marketing team. And I had to. Basically, I was acting as executive producer for two shows for this. And this was like 2021 to 2022. So, like, peak pandemic. And there was just like, yeah, let's get these shows out with artists. We were like, with artists from all over the country, from the. All over the U.S. people from Alaska, people from in California, people from the South. And it was just so nice to work on something that felt like it had so many stakes. And after I did that, I was like, wow, that was crazy. You know, to be hired as a podcasting assistant and end up basically overseeing things like guesting and editing and mixing and hiring other people to do the job. I was like, this is actually kind of fun. Even when it's exhilarating and stressful. So let's keep doing that. So then I applied and worked at a podcasting agency in Atlanta called Frequency Media. Worked there about a year and a half, I think.

Harry Duran 00:30:38:

Was that a remote job?

Jullian Androkae 00:30:39:

Yes, it was. So I was in California, and I was working.

Harry Duran 00:30:41:

Okay.

Jullian Androkae 00:30:43:

In Atlanta. Yeah. And. But this was really nice. So they hired me as a creative strategist, and really what my job was, it was twofold. It was, you know, contributing to the strategy of the podcast when it comes to production and especially visuals and also executing visuals, doing things like branding, doing things like video editing. And I was like, yeah, this is great for me. I really enjoyed my time there. And we did some very interesting podcasts for some large brands. Yeah, we worked. Got to work on podcasts. You know, it's like in those situations, you're. I think your role sort of is small just because the organization is so big and the creative control is something that you have a little less of. You can sort of wiggle your way through certain things. But there has been situations where it was like, oh, damn it. Like, I spent so much time on this, and you're telling me you're just going to go internal and you don't care. Okay, fine. But, yeah, I got to do some podcasts for brands like Coca Cola, for TurboTax, for, like, another museum I see in Miami, which were all really, really great to work on. Yeah.

Harry Duran 00:31:48:

So when you think about that journey and think about the experience you've had working on the variety of different shows, a lot of branded shows, it sounds, but obviously shows with, you know, the show you've been working on for five years, you know, there's varying successes, I'm sure, and varying ways to measure success, because, as you know, podcasters, when they first get started, the first thing they're looking at is refreshing their downloads or, like, every day, like, what's happening, what's happening? And then the realization, after you look at the Buzzsprout stats page, you're like, oh, you know, if you get 30 downloads, you're doing, you're actually doing okay. Like, you get 100 downloads, you're doing better than, like, half of all the shows. Yeah, surprisingly, yeah. Which is interesting and probably sobering for some podcasters. But when you think of the brands that you work with, how do you manage and how do you, you know, realistically explain to a company what the expectation should be? And also how do you measure? Because sometimes success for a company could be, we got a client. So, yeah, it, you know, you don't need a lot of downloads or visibility. You know, we need to get to the tens of thousands, you know, to make it worthwhile for sponsors and all that. So how do you think about those?

Jullian Androkae 00:32:54:

In a lot of the podcasts I was a part of, typically, you know, growing the show to a size where you would have sponsors was not really part of the deal. This was definitely more important when it came to smaller shows, independent shows. That's definitely the way to go about it. These bigger shows were sort of banking more on their, like, brand and their email lists, their existing connections to actually grow the show, you know, out of that. And I've got some things to say about that strategy, but I think there was some comfort in that, that they were saying, okay, the reach will be okay anyway because of the brand, and maybe this is going to be, I think, all, like, a lot of the important metrics that they were measuring was how the relationship with their employees and their audience for their products was evolving. So if it brought their audience closer to them and it built this sense of, you know, thought leadership, this sense of, I want to say confiance, which is the French word. This. Yeah. This sense of, I really don't have it now. It doesn't matter.

Harry Duran 00:33:56:

Trust.

Jullian Androkae 00:33:57:

Trust. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, yeah. So basically, I think there was a lot of that. I think that I was not in a position to clearly at the time, which has been changing, and I'm so happy about it, to just tell them, okay, this is what I think. This is what you should do, and I can explain it to you from A to Z. You know, there were other people at the agency that had that role, and they were doing a pretty good job of doing that. Okay, I've come to find, and I want to ask you about that, that a podcast in this era of podcasting really relies a lot on the way that you reach the community and build a relationship with the community around the podcast. So if you just put out the podcast into the world, it's not much is going to happen with it, no matter how good it is. I think how good it is could definitely build a lot of natural engagement, but here it can be found. You know, it just isn't going to work. And I think some people are really, really good at earned media and, you know, getting the podcast into newsletters. I think some people are really, really good at social media. Some people have really good email lists that they've built over time. But I think that without that ecosystem, a lot of the podcasts in this Sort of era of podcasting really struggle. I don't know what your experience has been.

Harry Duran 00:35:18:

No, I think it's important because we do some handful of production with our agency and you know, some of them come in, you know, they're moving from like I have an editor but you know, now I need a producer. And so we kind of pull everything together and they're doing well. So thankfully it's, they've already got a built in audience so we just try to amplify that. But it's challenging like you said, because you know, when you look at, especially when you see the merge of what's happening with the audio and the video, there's things that we can do and there's, you know, what if you want to call them a tactic or something for growing visibility on YouTube and whether that results in a, in the bigger picture. Because now when we do metrics we have to include, here's what's happening in your podcast host, here's what your followers are doing on Spotify, here's what your followers are doing on Apple, here's what's how many subscribers you have on YouTube, here's how many views your video is getting and you have to paint the whole picture. And I think one of the agencies recently did a, they have to educate also podcasters into what's the difference between a view and a stream? Is a view like a stream? Is a stream like a download? It's all this terminology that's very confusing for folks. And I think, you know, back in the days when Apple was automatically downloading the audio, people were like, look, the numbers went up, you know, and whether they got played or whether anyone was listening to that, no one's really caring. Just like, give me the number that the sponsor wants to see so that the I can justify the CPM and get paid like. So it's a very complicated landscape right now. But I think that's why I like staying in the realm of like business owners who I can, you know, I can help them. Let's say let's have a lead magnet, let's have a call to action, let's drive people to an email list. So let's get them to something like an office hours, something tangible, right? Because I'm realistic with them. Like the CPM model works for like, you know, the, when you get to the fifty thousand, a hundred thousand, you know, half a million, millions and then the math makes sense. But prior to that, like you'll need a different model. And that's why, you know, I created A second show that was super niche driven, that vertical farming podcast I think I mentioned to you, you know, which generated over a hundred thousand in revenue. But it's, I thought about it from a marketer's perspective because I used to work at E Trade and you think about a marketing department, they have spend, they want to spend it. Where do they want to spend it, where it's going to get results. Niche show. I know what the audience is going to be. And so, you know, how much of this do you talk about now as you start to work with clients and building shows in the planning phase? You know, I'm sure there's a part of the conversation that comes up is like, what's my downloads going to be? Or can you help with marketing?

Jullian Androkae 00:37:48:

I was very surprised because, I mean, this year specifically, it definitely seems like a lot of the people who are serious about starting a podcast, maybe it's their second podcast, have gone through what you just said. You know, they're like, yeah, my last podcast, I was like, I was coming in with all the downloads, I talked to a couple people and I had this exact conversation. I get it. It's not about the download because it's been, it hasn't been as hard. I remember 20, like during the pandemic, having to explain and have that conversation over and over with every single lead, every single people that I was like, yeah, it would be really great to do a podcast together. Really not as much anymore. I think that people also in this world of like every podcaster is a content creator, have stepped back from the idea of the download or the view and stepped up to maybe something like engagement. And so if they know that they can get some engagement through it, you know, whether that's comments, whether that's people going to their email list and sending them messages, things like that, they're like, they're a lot more excited about that because in their minds that then can lead to something more concrete than just views and downloads. But yeah, it's interesting what you're saying. Yeah, in the work we're doing, the people that I've been talking to have been. And it's so funny, most of them are in the US But I've got a couple of people I've talked to here in Europe, in Australia. I think a lot of people I talk to are no longer first time podcasters. Even if they're like a business owner, even if they're, or like if they haven't done a podcast, they've tried YouTube. If they haven't tried YouTube, you know, they have a newsletter that they've been growing. And so just by being in that world, I think that, yeah, the expectations have evolved a little bit.

Harry Duran 00:39:41:

And so talk to me, bring us to present day. What are you currently working on?

Jullian Androkae 00:39:47:

Yeah, I mean, so basically, Andrea and I, we started podvision, our production agency, last year, as I told you, and we're working, you know, full steam ahead on a few shows, which is super exciting. We had some really great conversations, and we're having some this summer that, you know, may or may not pan out to fill up our time in the fall, you know, so it's exciting and it's good to see sort of the breadth of experiences that we had that allows us to have different conversations with people from, like, museums. I think there was definitely a thing. This might have been my experience, but during the pandemic, early pandemic, museums and big companies were very excited. They got a little more frigid in 2023 when things didn't pan out for a lot of them. And maybe some of them are starting to come back to the table with whatever lessons they took at the time now. But the other thing I'm working on is a thing I call. I call it the podcaster's toolkit at this point. So basically what it is just that over the past year, I've been. I spent so much time. Actually, you know, I should have been transparent about that. I spent like, I'd say a thousand hours looking at AI and automations and things like that. And how can I apply it for vibe coding, which I do as well. And actually, like, yeah, cloud code. I've heard so many good things about it when I tried it. Well, cloud. I didn't try cloud code. It was actually a little worse than Gemini for me, in my personal experience. But a thousand hours of that. Like, I've just been looking at so many things and learning and trying to apply them. I've built up a bunch of things for myself. You know, I've got things that are fairly simple that AI just helps me build for myself, like macros, for example. On descript, one of my frustrations is the. Some of the shortcuts are not super useful and sometimes you have to. Like, you could do so many things by just putting shortcuts together, like, oh, copy, paste, copy, paste, on and on. Just build something like that. That's something you can ask an LLM, like, hey, can you write me a script that does this? And then you'll be done in five minutes. Right?

Harry Duran 00:41:47:

And how do you execute those scripts in the script.

Jullian Androkae 00:41:49:

So when I run it just on my computer, I basically have it open in the background and just executes it for my whole computer. So when you do something on your own, that's fairly easy. There's some, you know, I think Python libraries, you can do that. And a lot of the time it's going to be like, just visually based, like, which pixel are you pressing on lately? Which is the podcasters toolkit. That's basically a Chrome extension because you can run so many of the tools we use in the browser. Like we're recording the browser right now on squadcast. Descript is there, Riverside is in the browser. And a lot of like the Adobe suite is also accessible in the browser. And I like just so many of the things we do in podcasting is right here. And so I was like, okay, the extension can have access to the actual page and it can do some stuff. So I started building that out. The first thing I built was that was just a frustration I had. I deal with like four to five shows at the time. I get a Riverside link and like 90% of the time it's just. And it's so frustrating because there's a space for it on the page. This is. I'm really nerding out now. There's the Download for track 1, track 2, track 3, and then you have like all participants and the cloud option, but they did not put a high quality option right there, you know, and I was like, why don't you have a high quality option for all of the tracks separately? Obviously, because I want to be treating them separately when I mix.

Harry Duran 00:43:13:

Yeah, of course.

Jullian Androkae 00:43:13:

So the first thing I built was just that. Add that button on the Riverside just. You just need to download the extension. You have that button added anytime you open Riverside, you know, and.

Harry Duran 00:43:22:

And what does it do? It downloads all the high quality tracks at once.

Jullian Androkae 00:43:25:

Yes, yes. Oh, that's sometimes when I have like five tracks. Yeah, it's just one click as opposed to like 12, which is like, why am I clicking 12 times? And that one is a small other.

Harry Duran 00:43:35:

Challenge is because of the script, obviously in SquadCast, it's easy that this conversation is going to go straight to the script across the cloud. No uploads, downloads. But with Riverside, yeah, you know, they're not going to be friendly with each other. So that's been part of the challenge. Like download this 3Gig file on Riverside and then upload this 3Gig file to the script.

Jullian Androkae 00:43:54:

And so, yeah, and I will say that in my experience, Riverside has slightly higher quality than squadcast. Squadcast sort of makes sure that your video files are like around 1 gigabyte. They don't exceed that too much. And then you can sort of see it if people are using a good camera and whatnot. On Riverside, they're really like. They're like, oh, fine. This is supposed to be three gigabytes here, you know, take it. That's. That is one of the things I wanted to build. I was like, okay, just create a bridge between the two. I started working on it. There's some levels that are very easy. For example, I got you to the point where you can. I got it to the point where you can download all the tracks and when the download is done, it automatically opens descript and opens the dialog box to import the files, right? And so all you have to do is just select them and download or like upload. But I was like, okay, that's not that revolutionary, you know. And there's some models out there where I thought about it and I was like, okay, this could be doable. But then now this is a full on, you know, project where like you'd have to add me or like add my email address from the tool to your project in description and then have like a virtual computer in the background do all the work. It's doable. Nowadays, you know, you can, you could vibe code that. But it's a whole now, you know, SaaS.

Harry Duran 00:45:15:

I can relate because I'm having that experience now. And we're definitely for anyone who's been still keeping up with us as we're going down this crazy geeky rabbit hole. What I've noticed in when you're coding in the terminal, you start to connect to these other services. Like I'm using Stripe for some, I need Stripe access, but there's a Stripe, what's called the Stripe mcp, which is kind of like an API but for kind of vibe coding. So you can conn. And it's all happening on the back end. So you can point it to the documentation and it'll understand the documentation and it'll say, okay, this is how I speak to it. So I can see maybe, you know, tools like descript and riverside start developing like these APIs that you can just speak to from the command line and be like, okay, do this in the background. Tell you about.

Jullian Androkae 00:45:57:

They used to, okay, both descript and riverside used to have public APIs. And I think that over the last year and a half they've gotten in more so of a competition, you know, Descript started as an editor. Riverside began to as a recording option, and they've just basically been filling up each other's tool set and, you know, feature set over the past few years. And they do not want to be collaborating anymore for any number of reasons they imagine. But I was baffled when I started this project, the Podcasters Toolkit. I reached out to both of their support options because there are still pages on both of their websites about their APIs. They're still up, you know, but descript straight up told me, oh, we discontinued that API a couple years back. Reverse sites said it's only for, like, the highest paying customers that they have. I was like, okay, all right. So for something like that to happen, I think you would have to come from a third party at this point. I'd like it to be me, but that's a big lift. Maybe there's somebody else listening who's thought about it too, but it would be great. It would be really great. Or Squadcast, you know, raise your quality a little bit, make it a little bit better of an experience. Add Dark mode.

Harry Duran 00:47:17:

Yeah, Squadcast is now Descript now. So we'll have to wait to see what happens there. Well, I appreciate this deep dive. I think you and I could probably geek out more and maybe probably offline. We'll just figure out what we're each, share the projects we're each working on, because it sounds like there's a fun overlap there. But just a couple of questions as we wrap up. And I want to thank you for, like, this journey you've taken us on, this podcasting journey, and this, like, just creator journey, which I think has been really fun. What is something you've changed your mind about recently?

Jullian Androkae 00:47:45:

Oh, and by the way, you ask really good questions. The way that you've led through this interview has been really, really nice. So I appreciate that.

Harry Duran 00:47:51:

Thank you. Thank you.

Jullian Androkae 00:47:52:

What I've changed my mind about, I don't know. I think that. So I've always been sort of all over the place in terms of, like, what I like to do and what I like to apply my skills to. And there has always been this idea that you become a jack of all trades. You know, sure, you're a fine designer and you're a fine video editor, but you're never going to be the best at anything. And so one of the biggest things I had to do during the pandemic was just like, okay, figure out something I'm going to anchor myself in. Right. And part sort of the reasons for that. I mean, so out of that sort of camera, the podcasting aspect, you know, I was like, okay, I'm gonna go all in on podcasting. I've got all of these other things I love, but they'll come by here and here and there. And I think that all of this exploration has definitely brought me back to the point where I think in the environments we are right now with podcasting, but I think also just with the industries we are in, is that everyone is almost asked to become a jack of all trades. Like, you're an editor, and the point was for you to be able to, like, judge exactly how to cut tape and how to make it sound great and how to drive the story forward of that. But now pretty much everyone has to be like, okay, what's the AI tool I can use to make the audio sound better? What's the AI tool I can use to do XYZ and whatnot? Podcasters are asked to go to video, which is like, yeah, I mean, I did video for a while because I was a jack of all trades. And so that transition is a lot easier, I think that I'm starting to feel. Which isn't the best thing. But it's like, oh, okay, it wasn't so bad after all, to be a generalist when it comes to this. And it actually helps a lot when it comes to strategizing for podcasting and for maybe for just, how do you make a show better? How do you make the workflows around it better? And, yeah, I think it's a helpful concept to have as a step away from just being, like, a skilled worker. And I'm just sort of working as a partner with people.

Harry Duran 00:50:15:

That makes a lot of sense. What do you think is the most misunderstood thing about you?

Jullian Androkae 00:50:21:

Wow. These are questions. These are questions I don't ask myself. I think that's why I struggle with them. They're really good questions. But, yeah, I get so stuck into these practical things sometimes that. Yeah. That I am. How do you call that? What's the word again? Oh, my God, I lost the word. It's like when you seclude yourself or you're like, you're really.

Harry Duran 00:50:49:

Introvert.

Jullian Androkae 00:50:50:

Yes, you're an introvert. There you go.

Harry Duran 00:50:51:

Introvert.

Jullian Androkae 00:50:52:

I'm not an outrovert or anything like that, but I think that people may associate. I get very, like, quiet and calm, and there's not really any kind of energy to it. It's just sort of how I am and how I listen to people sometimes, you know, unless I'm on a podcast like this. And I think people will find sometimes that energy as if I was just like an introvert and I didn't want to be there. But then I think that then I'll find people that I really like and I really enjoy the energy of and then I will start yapping at them and talking to them and. Yeah, and I think as I've been, the reason why this is relevant for me right now is because I've been doing a lot more networking and just meeting people and making friends in the podcasting industry and I'm sort of walking that line of. And trying to figure that out.

Harry Duran 00:51:43:

I appreciate you sharing that and appreciate you for sharing your story here. I think it was nice to get to know you a little bit more. And this is actually the first time I've had a husband and wife on podcast junkies. I just didn't realize that. So that's amazing. So what's next for you, you know, conference wise? I'm headed to podcast movement myself next week. Yeah, we're.

Jullian Androkae 00:52:01:

I mean, I'm not headed to the US like anytime soon right now. I think that I would change my mind in the next year or so because I just want to be able to see people again. Yeah, I'm 100% going. I mean, obviously going back to London next year. Yeah. There's a few other conferences in Europe that I'll be excited to go to, but yeah, I think I'm going to look at the locations, but I think there's one on the east coast next year might be.

Harry Duran 00:52:31:

Yeah, I think so. They keep moving it.

Jullian Androkae 00:52:33:

Yeah, so that one might be one. But yeah, I think unless it's that and it makes sense, you won't be seeing mean persons.

Harry Duran 00:52:43:

It's an expensive hobby, to be sure. And it has to have a business case if you're, you know, you're making the investment to go. So I'm very conscious of that. But I. The podcast show, since it started has been on my list. So hopefully next year I'm going to try to get out there. I know a lot of the people that are that go and that I want to see that are in the uk.

Jullian Androkae 00:53:00:

So, yeah, the podcast show was amazing. It was really.

Harry Duran 00:53:03:

Yeah, I keep hearing really great things.

Jullian Androkae 00:53:05:

Yeah.

Harry Duran 00:53:06:

Yeah. So where should folks reach out to you and how do they reach out to you if they want to connect with you?

Jullian Androkae 00:53:11:

Yes, please reach out to me on LinkedIn, you know, somewhat active there and you'll be able to see what I do and, you know, send me your podcast, Send me your podcast, Cover Arts. I'm here to, like, take a look at them, give you some feedback. I'll keep it honest. If you've got an idea for a podcast, just share it with me. I'll be very happy to talk to you about it. If you want a little bit more information about the Podcasters Toolkit, you'll find them on our website. So it's going to be podvision, slash Podcasters Toolkit. So I'll send you a link after this. But apart from that. Yeah, that is essentially where you'll find me at. Apart from that. Yeah, I'm just not active at all on social media.

Harry Duran 00:53:47:

That's more than enough.

Jullian Androkae 00:53:48:

Yeah.

Harry Duran 00:53:49:

Well, thanks again for your time, Julian. I really appreciate this conversation. And we'll have all this, the links in the show notes as well.

Jullian Androkae 00:53:55:

I appreciate it. It was great seeing.